Using Project Management to Tame the Chaos, with Bobby Steinbach from MeanPug (Sponsored)

Announcer: 

Welcome to The Lawyerist Podcast, a series of discussions with entrepreneurs and innovators about building a successful law practice in today’s challenging and constantly changing legal market. Lawyerist supports attorneys, building client-centered, and future-oriented small law firms through community, content, and coaching both online and through the Lawyerist Lab. And now from the team that brought you The Small Firm Roadmap and your podcast hosts 

Zack Glaser (00:35): 

Hey y’all, it’s Zack and this is episode 461 of the Lawyerist podcast. Today we have a sponsored episode on project management in your law firm. I’m joined by Bobby Steinbach, a founding partner at MeanPug, and we’re talking about their project management journey and how they use software to keep themselves on track. We also dive into how you can use project management concepts to drive efficiency and productivity in your firm. 

Bobby Steinbach (01:01): 

Hi, I’m Bobby, and I am one of the founding partners at MeanPug Digital, as well as the resident nerd over here. 

Zack Glaser (01:08): 

Resident nerd. I like that. I like that. Bobby, thanks for being with me. I appreciate your time here. And y’all are a marketing firm, digital marketing firm that goes beyond law firms specifically, but also has a lot of clients that are law firms. Y’all have a lot of experience in this legal sort of field, and y’all can kind of speak to how the law firm marketing should go. 

Bobby Steinbach (01:34): 

Yeah, 100%. All we do is legal marketing and we actually expand beyond just digital. So we’re in the traditional side of things as well. So we do tv, radio, billboard, OOH, and obviously with all that, the problem really becomes in many ways, how do we manage all these things simultaneously and execute at a high level? 

Zack Glaser (01:54): 

Yeah, I think that’s a huge question because talking to attorneys specifically about their marketing, if they get an hour or so to sit down on a Friday and they get real jazzed about it, you sit down, look up how to do a marketing campaign or how to create your marketing calendar or your social media calendar, and they get a ton done, a ton written down, three days later, nothing is being done. 

Bobby Steinbach (02:20): 

Right. And on top of that, Lawyerist get busy quick. So in any scenario where they have an idea, it’s going to require a back and forth. We have to figure out how do we balance their openings, their availability to get the feedback that we need on our side to execute. So it’s not as simple as I have this idea, you do it, we do it, we send it back. Usually there is an iterative cycle that happens in between, 

Zack Glaser (02:49): 

And I think at least the people that listen to Lawyerist podcasts and whatnot usually have an idea that an iterative cycle is a good way to do things, kind of just going forward small bits at a time every time. But how do we do that? How do you guys over at MeanPug kind of manage that still moving forward and getting other people to move forward? Frankly? 

Bobby Steinbach (03:14): 

Yeah, I think it all comes down to planning and transparency. If our client understands that these are the things that we want to do over the course of the month, these are the milestones and tasks that need to happen for us to do them, then everyone’s incentivized to get things done on their timetable so that we hit objectives. 

Zack Glaser (03:35): 

So kind of talking about milestones and tasks, that means that there’s a certain amount of pre-planning that goes with this, thinking through the entire thing before we even get started, which is not necessarily what all lawyers are great at. How do you guys sit down and kind of do that pre-planning of even creating those milestones, whatnot? 

Bobby Steinbach (03:56): 

It has been a long road. That’s what I’ll say in many ways. I think we’ve learned that the hard part of marketing is not doing, the hard part of marketing is planning. So just to kind of tangent for a second here, we operate under a core thesis that the best way to execute a marketing plan is to be able to do many, many things simultaneously at a very high level. And what I mean is marketing is not myopic. You shouldn’t just focus everything on SEO or focus everything on content or focus everything on social. You should be doing all of it at the highest level to execute the perfect marketing plan. Okay, that’s great. And it’s all well and good, but then the hard part becomes the mesh that ties all of these services together, everything you’re doing together, and that is project management. 

(04:47): 

So it is an evolving process for us, and we’ve gone through a ton of iterations to get to where we are now. I’m happy with the progress made, but by no means do I feel we are at the summit. I think there’s still a ways to go. So you asked, what do we do to make sure everyone’s on the same page? How do we plan? There’s a lot of things that go into that answer. One I think is having the right tool set, having the right tool set is an important part of the planning process. Another part of the planning process that’s important is having the right people, so having the right roles, personnel, and then proficient folks to fill those roles. That’s important too. And then I think there’s a number of processes you develop along the way to assist in the people and in the tools. So doing things like having monthly standups with the client, having weekly standups with the internal teams, setting goals that are SMART goals. And when I say smart, I don’t mean he’s a smart guy, 

Zack Glaser (05:47): 

Right? Intelligent goals SMART goals. 

Bobby Steinbach (05:50): 

Correct? Correct. And for the folks out there that’s specific, measurable, achievable, realistic and time bound. So instead of us saying, Hey, we need to be a better business as a goal, or we need to get more clients, a smart goal is we should get five clients by the end of this month. That would be a smart example for that goal. 

Zack Glaser (06:14): 

Right. It’s interesting. Sorry to kind of break the cadence there, but it’s a really simple goal. It’s not that difficult to find something that is specific, measurable, achievable, realistic and time bound. It just takes actually thinking about it that way, 

Bobby Steinbach (06:31): 

And not to preempt the whole podcast, but if you were to leave this session with one thing to take back to planning at your firm or on behalf of firms or whoever it would be, think about all of your goals as smart goals, right? Reformulate how you operate into things that fit that paradigm. 

Zack Glaser (06:52): 

Yeah, no, I think that’s fantastic advice. So let’s go back to, I love this concept of iterative first thing, iterative in the project management itself, but this iterative solution that you guys have had of making the project management, the project management evolution. So what have you guys kind of gone from or what have y’all seen in creating this? Because I imagine there are people out there that are saying, I got nothing, Bobby, I got nothing, and I think I’m going to start with a Google sheet. 

Bobby Steinbach (07:27): 

Let me start with our specific journey and then I will talk about what I kind of think is the abstract journey that everyone goes through. So our specific journey went from no project management, kind of like how we’re describing, and it’s just spoken word between people, Hey, I’m going to do this this week. Can you do this? And that’s fine, and you have two people on the team and you have a really specific thing you’re doing that totally can work for a little bit, but not optimal. Next phase in our journey, we move to Google Docs. So we have a dry folder, these are the sets of things that we want to do. Let’s just lay everything out in a flat list. Who’s doing it? What is it? Maybe we include a due date if it’s something that’s easy to set a due date to, right? 

(08:13): 

Okay. What came after that, we moved to Wiki software. So we use something called nucleo. Other folks might’ve used Notion, but use some sort of Wiki software, which has a little more power than just straight docs, but is still not a dedicated project management solution. And for that, you can get a lot of what you need done. And I think for teams that are cross-functional, super cross-functional, sometimes, especially if it’s a product driven environment notion or something similar can be a good solution because it ties together your product wiki your documentation and your project management in one solution. So there is something to that, but there is also something to specialization and having dedicated project management software. So that leads us to where we’re at now, which is our current stage of evolution, and that’s project management software. So we use Asana internally. So even when we realized we need project management software, there was an evolution there, like a micro evolution where we went from Asana to Trello where we thought, Hey, this is too complicated. Let’s try and dumb it down. Then we went back, no, sorry. Then we went to Jira, basically completely turned the pendulum and said, oh, we’re not getting anywhere near enough functionality from Trello. Let’s get something more powerful. So it went to Jira, let’s go crazy. Yeah, let’s go crazy. Exactly. Let’s drive ourselves crazy. When we went to Jira and then we realized, wow, we have no skill to do this. We do not have the internal resources to manage this beast. So we went back to Asana. That 

Zack Glaser (09:49): 

Makes a lot of sense. And actually I want to stay in that little spot for a second because I think a lot of attorneys are going to have a lot of anything. A lot of offices are going to have that issue where you’re trying to balance capability of the software with your ability to wield the software. If you have a crew of two people, you’re not going to be driving a yacht across the ocean. You need to be on a 37 foot sailboat. You just can’t do it, but you need the best thing that you can do with your team. And I think people run into that a lot where they go, I’ve got the best software. How the hell am I going to set this up? How do I find the time to set this up? And I really like that evolution of nothing to Google Docs to something like Notion. I think a lot of people are very familiar with Notion. I think Microsoft is trying to do a loop that is that now and recognizing what features and functions you need and having that drive the software. I would hate it if somebody came out of this talk right here and goes, yep, we need Asana done. Somebody go buy Asana, and we’re going to set that up. That’s not what you need. What you need is project management software or you need project management solution of some sort. 

Bobby Steinbach (11:07): 

That’s right. That is a nice segue slash ties into my next point, which is there’s kind of three stages in my mind of evolution around project management and how you as an organization should think about it. There’s the beginning where you have nothing or you have very limited project management and you should build something, you should do something. There’s the second phase where you have, I would call it implicit project management documentation where you’re expecting people to read this thing to know how to do this other thing, but there’s no guardrails that enforce that these things happen, right? And then there’s the third stage, which is automation, right? Automation is your project management solution working for you. So you don’t want to jump straight to automation before you know what those rules are that you’re trying to encode. The things that happen in that implicit stage are important. You can’t just top from nothing to automation. You need to understand what your human processes are and where you want your tooling to fit in. So that piggybacks off your point around it’s not just Asana, it’s not just Jira, it’s not just whatever. It’s understanding your human processes and then finding the tool that fits those processes and can elevate what you’re doing as an organization. 

Zack Glaser (12:28): 

Well, so kind of going on that at MeanPug, how long did it kind of take you guys to get from one point to another from nothing too implicit? From implicit to automation? And I know that implicit to automation at least is a living thing. It’s an ongoing thing. You’re always honing that. 

Bobby Steinbach (12:47): 

That’s right. I would say it’s a logistic type of timeline where nothing too implicit probably was like a two month onboarding. Implicit to automation was probably a 10 to 12 month onboarding, and then automation on is now a two year plus timeline. So it’s one of those curves that starts steep and then kind of trails out, 

Zack Glaser (13:13): 

And it just gets better and better and better and better and better and more automated. 

Bobby Steinbach (13:18): 

But the flip side to that is the more automation you have and the more tooling you have, the harder it is to do things right, to try new things because locked into process, which is in many ways a good thing because process equals quality. The only way to achieve quality at scale is process, but the downside to it is you can’t move quickly. Everything is locked in. So always a balancing act. 

Zack Glaser (13:42): 

So with that kind of project management and with that path, those three steps, where do project managers fit into that scenario, into that whole machine? 

Bobby Steinbach (13:54): 

That’s a great question. I think the answer is that they’re the conductor of the machine. So depending on your size, you can have project managers continuing to build out your pipelines and your automation on the project management solution. But that’s not a need to have in my mind. For smaller orgs and I consider us that bucket, that type of improvement should lie at the partner level or executive level or what have you, because those are the folks who see the business from bird’s eye and really understand, should understand where to push and pull pieces. So maybe at some point that might not hold. But for now, and I think for many org, that’s kind of the case, but project managers need to be intimately familiar with what the processes are that they’re responsible for, how the tooling works and how to drive forward projects using that tooling. 

Zack Glaser (14:51): 

And for a smaller law office that is working with you guys, that’s working with MeanPug, y’all would have a project manager on your side, and this law office would have somebody, let’s say it’s a five attorney firm, they would have somebody whose total job is not project managing the marketing of their firm, but that is one of their designations would be to be the kind of converse project manager, right? 

Bobby Steinbach (15:20): 

In some degree or another, whether it’s a partner or it’s a marketing coordinator, there is somebody who is a liaison on the other side. 

Zack Glaser (15:29): 

Just to pick at that a little bit, do you find it better to have a partner or a kind of marketing person, which one is better? Is it a better use of that time? 

Bobby Steinbach (15:41): 

I feel like I’m walking into a trap because I think it’s not a black and white answer. There’s pluses and minuses to both answers. Pluses. For a partner, you have a direct line to the decision maker that is the person who’s going to end up making final call on A or B plus on marketing coordinator. They are familiar with marketing, they understand the process. The expectations tend to be a little more in line with reality. Those are the pluses. 

Zack Glaser (16:14): 

Gotcha. 

Bobby Steinbach (16:15): 

I think you could probably relatively easily back into the minuses just based on the pluses, but Right, 

Zack Glaser (16:20): 

Right. And I think that’s not just law firms. No. I mean, that’s everything. You gain a lot from having a decision maker, the ultimate decision maker in the room, but at the same time, sometimes it’s not worth their time. Sometimes they are a little differently invested, but I guess really somebody needs to be in that position of managing this project. So they would have kind of a mirrored project management on their side. 

Bobby Steinbach (16:51): 

I think law firms have very different needs, obviously, than marketing agencies in terms of what a project manager does. And they exist, they just go by different names. Paralegals in many cases are the project managers for workloads, so it’s not surprising that that exists. But on the marketing side, it’s usually pretty light in terms of what the client needs to do from a project management perspective, strictly because it’s mostly reactive. They’re just reacting to us telling them, let’s get a call on the books to go over this next round of design, or let’s set up a monthly recurring meeting to review the status of these SEO campaigns. So the only reason I say it’s not exactly a requirement to have what I would call a project manager on the client side for marketing is because it’s reactive and I don’t think of project management as reactive. 

Zack Glaser (17:43): 

Okay, that makes sense. Alright, so at MeanPug, you guys are using Asana, but you said you’ve gone through Jira, Trello, I have experience or some experience with Wrike. We use teamwork at Lawyerist. Can you talk to me about these a little bit? What are the plus and minuses? What’s your experience with these? 

Bobby Steinbach (18:03): 

So most of these things are well-funded software companies that have good ui, right? The pluses and minuses are not, usually this product is just like bad. So for some scenarios that’s not this, the answer is just like, this product is bad and this product is good. That’s not really the case for these project management solutions. What it really comes down to, and the factors that I judge these on are simplicity and extensibility. And those two tend to be inversely proportional, right? As simplicity goes down, extensibility goes up, as simplicity goes up, extensibility goes down. That tends to be how these things fall. So something like Trello, great to get off the ground, and over time it’s become more powerful. So you can get pretty far, but at some point you will be constrained by what you’re able to do inside the platform. Whereas Jira, you’re going to have a really difficult time getting basic workflows off the ground. But once you’ve taken the time to master it and learn all the bells and whistles of the product, it is probably the most powerful project management solution because it’s so extensible and can fit your needs perfectly. Asana. I like to think kind of toes that middle ground where you get a lot of the benefits of something like Jira with customization options, but you don’t have to be a specialist to get running. 

Zack Glaser (19:35): 

So this speaks to me what you’re saying here because on our review site, so I do the majority of the reviews on our site and the products that are on our site, it’s not is this trash, is it not trash? Who is this for? And I think this idea of simplicity versus extensibility is exactly right of where do you live in that moment and you can grow into it. It seems like you guys over at Meme Pug grew into this, and I don’t want to use the word settled into Asana, but found that right space. 

Bobby Steinbach (20:12): 

That’s right. How do you feel about Teamwork? 

Zack Glaser (20:15): 

It’s middle ground ish. There are a lot of things that we don’t use, but we were able to spin up. We currently are actually on a older version, so we don’t have all the bells and whistles just yet, and we’re kind of shifting into that, so we’ll have to see in a couple of months, frankly. But there are also things in these pieces of software that are a little bit of add-ons. So teamwork has kind of its own little wiki sort of area called spaces where you can keep all the information, your documentation, things like that, but it doesn’t completely jive with the product all the time. And so I think it is going into the product and saying, how does this feel for me? I literally tell people, if you don’t like a certain color, we get into this in law practice management software. And if you don’t like the color of the software and it just doesn’t feel good and you don’t want to wake up every day and look at it, don’t enough stuff out there that you can use something else. 

Bobby Steinbach (21:16): 

Yeah, I 100% agree. A hundred percent agree. 

Zack Glaser (21:18): 

So there’s project management and then there’s I guess getting into that law practice management and then project management. I talk to people all the time about how, personally I think that a project management software should be the thing that you go into in the day. Most Lawyerist think you go into your law practice management software, you go into your case management software at the beginning of the day, that’s what you log into in, that’s what everything goes from. I personally think that it should be your project management and then everything goes from there. Where do you see project management software sitting in that world of software of lawyers? 

Bobby Steinbach (21:53): 

Yeah, no one size fits all solution. I think for some firms, if you’re a firm that is super cross-functional and also depends on the role, if you’re an on the ground associate and you’re working in one specific practice area might be different than if you’re the executive partner of a hundred person firm and you need to keep an eye on everything going on. So I think there’s a lot of different avenues to walk down here. But overall, I would say if you are cross-functional and you care about cross-functional things, right? So you don’t care about just what’s happening on the status of your cases. Maybe you care about marketing efforts that your firm is taking on or maybe you care about operational concerns like call center, how’s the call center handling their tasks throughout the day? Are you happy with how you’re handling inbound and outbound questions like that. If those are things that you care about, then you should start a project management. If those are not things you care about and all you care about is my docket of cases, maybe you don’t need project management. 

Zack Glaser (22:59): 

So as with everything, it’s generally not as simple as it looks. So yeah, so a project manager obviously, but somebody that is managing more people, managing more projects, managing more jobs, many, many cases, taking a step back and having more of a 30,000 foot view is beneficial for them, 

Bobby Steinbach (23:23): 

Beneficial for them. And then the question becomes is it beneficial enough for the org to take on the overhead of maintaining project management? Because let me tell you, the only thing worse than having no project management is having incorrect project management. 

Zack Glaser (23:40): 

Yeah, that’s fair. Okay, well, so let’s use that as a way to get into how do we do correct project management? Let’s take MeanPug. We’re setting SEO goals and trying to figure out how we as a law firm are going to get this done. Walk me through that. 

Bobby Steinbach (23:59): 

So everyone, probably everyone has a different preference in how they would prefer to approach the problem of project management. For sure. The universal is started understanding the problems. That’s going to be the universal. But from there, a lot of it is going to come down to your tool set. I can speak specifically to MeanPug and walk you through how I think about project management problems at MeanPug and how we onboarded some solutions in Asana to solve those problems. So I’m going to walk through a web rebuild project for us and what the evolution was. So we used to just build websites with the standard workflow. We all understood via word of mouth internally, we need to start at scripting and or design. We need to get approval from the client to get these designs approved. We need to build the site, then we need to go into QA and then we need to deploy and run all post-deployment operations. 

(25:01): 

So I knew this to be the timeline of what we had to do. The next step was thinking through all of the individual tasks that went into what each of these phases meant. So okay, let’s look at design on the design side. What are some individual tasks? Some individual tasks are we need to get the homepage mocks designed and approved. That’s one individual task. What’s another individual task? Another individual task is we need to get the inner pages designed and approved. Those are two specific tasks. Once we’ve moved from design into development, we might have something like a hundred additional tasks that go into each component that gets designed, but that is the tasking that we kind of realized we need to do at a granular level. From there, we realized this can really bucket into milestones. The first milestone in our project is design approved. 

(25:57): 

So did we get approval for design? That’s the first bucket. The second bucket is development completion. When did we complete development? The third bucket is qa, when did QA complete? And the fourth bucket is deployment. When is deployment finished? What’s the good thing about milestones? The good thing about milestones is it’s the most native way to see how you’re tracking in terms of meeting due date or meeting completion date. You can always pin where you are currently to what the last milestone was. So if you are a week beyond when design was supposed to complete, you can say we’re one week overdue. And I know that because we set the milestone for design completion to a week ago. So they’re like way points in your journey. So okay, we laid out tasks, we laid out milestones. The next thing that I realized we needed in our management was a way to do this repeatably. 

(26:45): 

So we had this for one project, how do we do this for every project? And the answer there is create a template. So in Asana we create a project template. We then use that template for every future build. And when we realize, oh, we actually have some additional tasks that we take on in every build that I forgot about initially, we can add that to the template and improve our processes over time. So that in a nutshell is kind of how we went from nothing in project management for one specific activity we do to being an automation empowered org for that project. 

Zack Glaser (27:20): 

It makes sense when you lay it out like that because when you stare at a blank page and you go, well, what do we do? It doesn’t make a lot of sense, but it makes sense when you lay it out like that. And I think that there are probably a lot of attorneys out there that are saying, I could probably take a section of my practice and use that idea to kind of just wind up with a template of tasks and milestones that we have for every estate that we do, for every divorce that we do that it’s a simple divorce, we can probably create these. 

Bobby Steinbach (27:56): 

Totally. And I think it’s a very worthwhile activity to sit down and write out what are each of the things that went into the successful completion of this project. 

Zack Glaser (28:06): 

I like that. I like that kind of a retrospective. Most lawyers have already done a case like this before, so when you get done with it, do a retrospective. And that’s a great place to start with creating a project or a template based on what you do. 

Bobby Steinbach (28:22): 

Yeah, 100%. And there are multiple benefits. One benefit is you will now have a better understanding of what your process was that led to successful completion. The other benefit is new employees, existing employees, everybody has more visibility into what we need to do to be successful as an org. 

Zack Glaser (28:42): 

Right? Right. Okay. So that’s specifically for MeanPug web development, how you guys got from point A to point B, but thinking about it from the law firm’s perspective and thinking about something that’s a little bit more black boxed, how do we move forward with SEO and SEO goals and managing that? 

Bobby Steinbach (29:04): 

Yeah, that is the million dollar question, and this is one of those, like I said at the start, this is an evolving process for us. This is one of those recent evolutions for us. I had the epiphany that more than any other activity we take on SEO would benefit from having these sorts of time bound achievable specific goals. Because historically it is so in the opposite camp where this is a long thing that may or may not work. And then by the way, what I’m saying here is what most agencies will probably tell clients during onboarding or during the sales process, they will say, SEO should be thought of in terms of years. It’s going to be hard to measure. It’s going to be a long-term. This is like everybody is in on this, right? So I started thinking about how can we leverage our improvements in project management to make SEO a little bit less black boxy? 

(30:04): 

It’s always going to have some degree of it because nobody understands the algorithm and that’s the game. That’s the game. So it’s fine, but how can we do better? So what we’ve started doing is we are implementing smart goals on our head terms on a quarterly basis. So what does that mean? That means at the start of every quarter, our team sits down and says, what are the five most important terms to rank for this quarter? What should we hit? So we are currently sitting at this ranking for this term. What is our goal to hit this quarter? We’ll very deliberately cap the number of terms we’re going to measure to five, and this sets a specific measurable, achievable, realistic, time bound goal for us to hit as an organization. And then if we don’t do it, it’s something that on the other side, the client can say, we thought that we were going to hit this goal. What happened? And we could talk through it as a team. Did we drop the ball? Is it just like we got very close, like we said we’re going to get to spot 10 and we got to spot 11. That maybe is okay, but it just creates this open dialogue between us and the client and us as a team internally to gather around. 

Zack Glaser (31:24): 

I like that because it makes the measurable part kind of capitalized in my mind. Obviously it’s an acronym, so everything’s capitalized, but the M kind of becomes bigger. We don’t think about the purpose of measurable. Sometimes measurable means that you can manage it. It means that you can talk about it. You can have a retrospective on it just because you didn’t. We have goals at Lawyerist that we set every quarter all the time, and we have K P I goals that we set all the time and we don’t hit them. If you’re hitting your goals every time, your goals are probably too small. And so not hitting these SEO goals. Yeah, I mean you want to hit ’em of course, but not having them is maybe the bigger problem. And so kind of capping it at five, that makes it to me a realistic thing to do. Because if we’re saying, okay, well we have 30 terms that we’re going to go for and we’re going to have specific goals for each one of these, that’s pretty overwhelming, but capping it at five, but then coming back and saying, but we’re going to have smart goals for this is frankly huge. 

Bobby Steinbach (32:37): 

And on top of all that, it’s really easy as an agency to say, look at all these terms that grew over the past six months. But the natural answer in many cases from the client is, okay, but where’s the money? Where’s the revenue? Does it really matter that I’m ranking for the term accident on I 90 off of the highway on June 5th? Right? That’s not going to get any traffic, 

Zack Glaser (33:03): 

Man. You got all half people that were searching for that last month. Right, exactly. You got a hundred percent of them. 100% of zero. It’s still zero. 

Bobby Steinbach (33:12): 

Yeah, exactly. So this gives us a way to create goals that meaningfully move the needle on the business side. 

Zack Glaser (33:20): 

Fantastic. Well, I like that we started and ended with those smart goals. I think, like you said, that is probably one of the biggest things to pull out of this, but there’s a lot of great information in here, Bobby, I really appreciate you talking with me today about project management and the marketing ideas broadly. If people want to learn more about MeanPug, where can they go and get more information about you guys? 

Bobby Steinbach (33:44): 

Yeah, shoot us an email bark@meanpug.com, as in like woof woof bark, or visit meanpug.com and just shoot us a message. Always happy to chat. 

Zack Glaser (33:55): 

Sounds good. Sounds good, Bobby, again, I appreciate your time. Thank you. Thanks for being with me. 

Bobby Steinbach (34:00): 

Thanks, Zack. It’s a good time. 

Announcer (34:03): 

The Lawyerist Podcast is edited by Britany Felix. Are you ready to implement the ideas we discuss here into your practice? Wondering what to do next? Here are your first two steps. First. If you haven’t read The Small Firm Roadmap yet, grab the first chapter for free at Lawyerist.com/book. Looking for help beyond the book? Let’s chat about whether our coaching communities, are right for you. Head to Lawyerist.com/community/lab to schedule a 10-minute call with our team to learn more. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not endorsed by Legal Talk Network. Nothing said in this podcast is legal advice for you.