Healthy Clients: Designing Client Experience, with Nkoyo-Ene Effiong

Announcer: 

Welcome to The Lawyerist Podcast, a series of discussions with entrepreneurs and innovators about building a successful law practice in today’s challenging and constantly changing legal market. Lawyerist supports attorneys, building client-centered, and future-oriented small law firms through community, content, and coaching both online and through the Lawyerist Lab. And now from the team that brought you The Small Firm Roadmap and your podcast hosts 

Stephanie Everett (00:35): 

Hi, I’m Stephanie Everett. 

Zack Glaser (00:36): 

And I’m Zack. And this is episode 443 of the Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today, Stephanie is interviewing Nkoyo-Ene Effiong as we continue our book tour focusing on healthy clients. 

Stephanie Everett (00:50): 

Today’s podcast is brought to you by Posh Virtual Receptionists, Clio, & LawPay. We wouldn’t be able to do our show without their support, so stay tuned because we’re going to tell you more about them later on. 

Zack Glaser (01:00): 

So Stephanie, last week, and I guess whenever somebody’s listening to this, it’ll be sometime in the past, we did our vivid vision for the Affinity, well, I guess Affinity as the larger company and Lawyerist and all that. And so you presented what the vision of the company is. Can you kind of expand upon what that is for a company? 

Stephanie Everett (01:24): 

Yeah, I mean, if you’ve been around our community for any period of time, now that we are big fans of teams having visions, right? It’s that idea of what is it we’re trying to build? What is this thing going to look like? And also, you may recall that in January, our team merged with the Affinity Consulting Group. We’re so excited about that. And so it was a good chance for both teams to take a fresh look at our visions and say, well, what is this thing going to look like now? And especially now that we’re combined, what does this mean? And so my rock in Q1 was to put pen to paper and actually come up with the story, the presentation. I mean, a lot of people did the work, right? There was lots of thoughts and ideas that had gone into what should it look like that we’re building. I just got to be that final scribe to say, okay, here’s the story. Here’s what it’s going to look like. And what really excited me too is, and I’m always on my soapbox about this, it isn’t a sentence because what we’re trying to build, it’s larger than a sentence. And if I was trying to tell you, Zack, my teammate, Hey, this is what our company’s going to look like in three to five years. It’s going to be this amazing place that serves people this way and this and with these offerings, and it’s going to help them with these things. And this is what the backend’s going to look like and our technology and our team and our onboarding, and this is how it all fits together. I can’t tell you that in a sentence. 

Zack Glaser (02:54): 

No, 

Stephanie Everett (02:54): 

No. I mean a very long run on one maybe, but 

Zack Glaser (02:59): 

One of those really long lawyerly sentences that we like to do. That’s a full paragraph. Yeah. Well, I mean the meeting was what, an hour and a half. But from my perspective, it was a good moment to reflect a, because I assume in making this vision, you had to say, well, what were our visions previously? What have we done? But then it also says, what have we accomplished? Have we hit our three year goals from three years ago, our one year goal from one year ago? And then how do we adjust that? I know it was eagerly anticipated from my perspective, to be able to hit the reset and say, yes, we’re traveling, we’re moving forward, the vehicle is moving forward, the boat is sailing. How do we adjust our course to do what we want to do now, given all the scenarios that’s around it, 

Stephanie Everett (03:53): 

And it’s a good reminder too that it’s not a once and done kind of thing. It’s not that you’ve started your business and you create the vision and then you’re done. You get to keep coming back to it and you revisit and just like you said, well, where are we on this path? What have we already done and what’s next? And it’s also a lot of fun. I mean, I hope you had fun. The other kind of lesson of that is you can’t keep it a secret. We even debated this internally because there was so much work that goes into it, and we were already like, well, we need to be able to answer this question, or maybe they’re going to ask us this. We got a lot of questions after we presented it of, well, this sounds great guys, but how are we going to get there? 

(04:33): 

And we had to say to ourselves, that’s the next step. We have to get it out to the team. We have to have that shared vision so that they can get clued in and understand where we’re trying to go so they can start helping us get on the right path. And so many times as owners, it is easy to get trapped in our head and say, but I want this to be perfect. I needed to have all the things. I mean, even when I was doing the draft, I was nervous to release it to my teammates for them to read it because I was like, and finally I said, okay, I just have to put it out in to this first, this smaller circle and then another little bit bigger circle. Then eventually the whole team, because it’ll never happen if it just lives in my head waiting for me to come up with the perfect words. 

Zack Glaser (05:16): 

Right. Well, I think it’s interesting to think about though how you put that together because you do want as much input as possible from teammates and things like that, but at some point you have to bring it into a smaller group. And in some firms it’s going to be one person. In other firms, it might be 10 people, but bring it into a smaller group in order to create this vision because too many cooks in the kitchen. You’re spoil a pot. I guess that’s the actual saying. And if you get too many people pulling in different directions, you don’t have a vision, you just have people looking around. 

Stephanie Everett (05:53): 

I like that you also don’t have a very bold one because we know that when people get together, especially around topics like this, what should we try to build? I mean, there were times even where that smaller group was like, wait a minute, this seems hard. Or maybe it’s scary. These are big changes. Maybe we shouldn’t be so bold. And I was like, no, that’s the whole point. We need somebody. You must need that person, that leader who’s willing to put the stake in the ground, be the JFK moment and say, no, we’re going to the moon. Damnit, figure it out. I don’t know. You guys figure it out, but you got to have that gumption really 

Zack Glaser (06:29): 

Well, and I want to hang on that moonshot idea. Your first thought or my first thought is like, whoa, hang on, hang on. Are we jfk? And literally, no, we’re not. But we as the Lawyerist community at large, the listeners of this podcast, the attorneys that are out there forward thinking are doing things that are moonshots, they are changing the world. And so your vision can be and should be potentially audacious, really out there because we may not hit it, but we’re going to get really far as well. 

Stephanie Everett (07:05): 

I love it. I think so. And if that’s your words of encouragement, go and think big and then think bigger. 

Zack Glaser (07:12): 

Fantastic. Well now here is Stephanie’s conversation with Nkoyo. 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (07:21): 

Hi, I’m Nkoyo-Ene Effiong, young director of law practice management for the state bar of Georgia. In that work, I help la start scale and shut down their law practice with less stress. 

Stephanie Everett (07:33): 

I love that. Less stress. Most people don’t introduce themselves and say the part about shutting down firms. We always talk about growing and starting, but I would imagine shutting down your firm can be pretty stressful too. 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (07:46): 

It can be. And having gone through that process of shutting down my firm, I guess about a year and some change ago, it’s definitely something that if you haven’t thought about it at the beginning, can become really stressful at the end when you’re trying to figure things out that maybe if you had had a plan initially around what the arc of your work would look like, you might have designed differently. I definitely would’ve designed differently if I had thought about the end and shutting down my practice at the beginning. 

Stephanie Everett (08:16): 

Yeah, I think that’s great advice and a great little segue into what we’re going to talk about today, which is designing client experiences, which also is something some attorneys are spending lots of times thinking about right now, but others they might just be going with the flow and either because they’re busy and they don’t have time to think about it or because they’re just doing what they’ve learned. So what comes to mind when you think of first steps in that idea of designing a client experience? 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (08:46): 

Yeah, so I think one of the first things that I think about and when I speak on this share is that for many of your clients, you may be their first experience with the legal system, you might be their first positive experience with the legal system. And so when we think about the future of law, we think about the access to legal services gap. And a lot of these issues that we have in the practice of law right now, one of the things that just always sticks with me is that our clients are not accustomed to, they don’t understand necessarily, they’re not as adept and skilled at navigating the legal system and so much of what is natural or normal or systematic or methodical to us because that’s what we do as legal professionals. That’s what we’ve been trained to do. I was a litigator when I started my career, so the process of a complaint, getting to resolution is something that I understood, but a lot of my clients did not. And that can be at any level, regardless of how sophisticated they may be, they may have had more experience with it, but a lot of times we are their first or possibly their first positive experience with the process and a process that’s pretty stressful and frustrating and confusing to you while you’re also living through whatever challenge has brought you to an attorney. 

Stephanie Everett (10:14): 

Yeah, I love that reminder. I mean, I feel like I’m a sophisticated person and I’ve had some experiences with the legal system and it was stressful and I was a seasoned litigator and it was still very stressful in part because you know, don’t know what’s happening and you don’t feel like you have a lot of control over the process over sometimes the expense if the lawyer’s billing you by the hours. Absolutely. So I think it’s fair to say sophistication level aside, we need to recognize that what we do is really hard for our clients. 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (10:51): 

I agree. I agree. And I think the more that we can help clients see and anticipate what is going to happen, and I know I can hear Lawyerist already, you know, can’t anticipate. You don’t know what type of, how opposing counsel might be or what judge you get or how the other party wants to negotiate a contract and their strategy. And so there are absolutely aspects of our work that are outside of our control, but I think that a really important part of designing a client experience is being open and honest and upright with your clients about what the process is. And I think sometimes just the mere act of explaining this is where we are in the process, this what’s coming next, this is what you can expect. And if something outside of this anticipated approach or trajectory happens, I’m going to communicate that with you, can be really comforting to people who are dealing with this in addition to a lot of other things. 

(11:53): 

That’s the other thing I learned the hard way practicing, but I think more of us need to understand is the law is one tool in a toolbox. It is one piece of a larger problem that people are encountering or facing in their lives. And so we are being surgical with certain things. There are issues and then there are legal issues, there are problems, and then there are legal problems, there are solutions, and then there are legal solutions. And so your solution may really be a very narrow portion of a bigger, broader solution that people are trying to achieve. And the more that we recognize that responding to every single one of your million emails might not be the most important thing or pressing thing for a client might help us to think differently about how we communicate, how we set up and structure things, how we make time meaningful. 

(12:47): 

Especially if you’re billing me hourly, I don’t want to see your bill that says that you spent 1.1 reading an email. Let’s think about what that looks like, how that feels or come a comes across for a client who has engaged you to offer them advice and counsel during a challenging or perhaps even an exciting, maybe they’re starting a business, maybe they’re registering a trademark for the first time, who knows. They’re asking you to help them with a problem that’s complex that they can’t necessarily solve themselves or that they don’t want to solve, and they’re coming to you because you have more knowledge, more experience, et cetera, and they’re looking for some of that value and not just the deliverable and the very little nuts and bolts of everything that you’ve done. 

Stephanie Everett (13:34): 

So in our book, we talk about designing a process so that it’s healthy, we’re all about this idea of healthy and we stay healthy clients, which means healthy client experience. And you, I know also teach on this, and one of the things I’ve heard you say is you also want to d design an experience filled with dignity. And I wonder if you could speak to that. What would it look like for us to design a client experience that’s filled with dignity? I love that word. 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (14:01): 

So I have a whole movement around lawyering for dignity and remembering that regardless of why our clients have come to us, they are whole human beings deserving of respect, deserving of our time and attention, and to be treated the same way that we would want to be treated or expect to be treated if we were reaching out to an attorney. It’s fascinating because I work at the state bar and sometimes the calls that we get and the tone that people take with our office, it’s like, wait, hold on. You would never allow someone to call your firm and operate this way. And so you just want to think about with your clients, we as legal professionals are in a position of power and privilege because we have this knowledge about how a whole system works that many people do not have. And it can be easy to be frustrated or annoyed with clients because they don’t know, or they’re asking a lot of questions or they don’t know the right questions to ask, et cetera. 

(15:07): 

And I think that having dignity in a process and designing with dignity is recognizing that as an attorney, as a legal professional who is steeped in this legal culture, there is a way that we do things. There’s a way that we show up. There are expectations, there are unspoken norms that we are privy to, but not necessarily everyone else is actually educating and moving alongside your client, meeting them where they are and helping them to have access to the information, the strategy, the support that you have because of your experience. And I think sometimes we forget that in the attorney client relationship, clients are actually supposed to have a level of control. They’re supposed to be able to make decisions, but if you’re not preparing your client, you’re not providing them with information at their level that they can understand to make a decision, then that experience isn’t as empowering as it can be or should be if you think about our rules of ethics and then even the aspirational aspect of professionalism. And so designing with dignity is really about thinking about who your clients are, meeting them where they are, and creating an experience where you treat them as co-laborers in the work people that you are working with to get a solution. Not people that you’re doing things for or to, but people that you believe are, I don’t like to use the word equal cause I I’m have a really great way to say that. Maybe 

Stephanie Everett (16:35): 

Worthy, they’re worthy of your time and your attention. 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (16:39): 

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely worthy. 

Stephanie Everett (16:41): 

So everything you said so resonates. When I was running the incubator, which was also at the time a part of the state bar of Georgia, we ended up banning our attorneys from saying that clients were crazy because it’s an easy thing to throw around and be like, oh, that crazy client, that crazy client called me and they want this or they want that. And so we’re like, guys, like we got to stop this. We’re just putting this idea and we won’t even get into, we’re not trying to get into mental health issues, but it’s easy to sort of dismiss client behavior as this crazy behavior instead of saying, what are we doing to educate them and answer their questions and like you said, treat them as worthy of the information they need to be a part of their representation. So this resonates with me. 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (17:33): 

Yeah, all of that. 

Stephanie Everett (17:35): 

I love this. It makes complete sense to me why we need to remind ourselves of how to frame our client experience this way. Let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors and when we come back, maybe we can dig into a few tips that you might have, how we actually put some of these ideas into practice, because I love giving our audience real actionable ideas. 

Zack Glaser: 

The Lawyerist Podcast is brought to you by Posh Virtual Receptionists. As an attorney. Do you ever wish you could be in two places at once? You could take a call while you’re in court, capture a lead during a meeting or schedule an appointment with a client while you’re elbow deep in an important case. Well, that’s where Posh comes in. They’re a team of professional, US-Based, live virtual receptionists available 24/7/365. They answer and transfer your calls, so you never miss an opportunity and you can devote more time to building your law firm. And with the Posh app you’re in total control of when your receptionist steps in. You can save as much as 40% off your current service provider’s rates. Even better, Posh is extending a special offer to Lawyerist listeners, visit posh.com/lawyerist to learn more and start your free trial of Posh Live Virtual Receptionist services.? 

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Stephanie Everett (20:54): 

So we’re back and we’re talking about designing healthy client experiences that are filled with dignity and our clients are worthy of being part of that process. And I just wonder if you have a few tips because sometimes it sounds like a good idea, but what does it look like when we put it into practice? 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (21:14): 

Yeah, so I think my first set of tips is being clear about what you want people to say about you and the experience that they had after it’s done. And that’s regardless of whether you won the case or not, you got them everything that they wanted. If you’re in the transactional area, the contract or the negotiations came back the way you wanted or the trademark was able to register or whatever. There’s a great quote out there that’s like, people won’t always remember what you said, but they’ll remember how you made them feel. I probably butchered or massacred that, and so I’m a little woo woo, I’m into all that mindset and beliefs and feelings, et cetera. But I think if you think about how you want people to feel at the end of the experience, it will help you to think about how you design the experience. 

(22:07): 

So one, I think my first tip is like what do you want people to say? What’s the ideal review that they leave? What’s the testimonial that they are so willing to record and let you blast all over everywhere? What do you want them to be saying to their friends, neighbors, colleagues, et cetera about working with you? And if you think about what that looks like, then you can start to unpack from there what you put into your process. So first is like what do you want people to say at the end? I’m a backwards planner, and so I like to think about things that way. Next. It’s like what is the process? And I think that this is where we lose a lot of our clients is we haven’t put pen to paper about what the process is. Maybe we’re not process oriented ourselves and how we manage our cases, which can feel very overwhelming and stressful for your clients if you are sort of flustered and everywhere. 

(23:00): 

I should have told you as a background, I was a fourth grade teacher before I became an attorney. And I distinctly remember my first year teaching hold a what a mess. I was in there. I could never find my papers, stuff would be packed up and I would be rifling through things to try to get to the next assignment, which led to all these opportunities for my students to fight with each other, find different issues, et cetera. And what I realized is their experience in the classroom wasn’t seamless because I was all over the place. And so if you don’t know what your process is, and even at a bare bones level, okay, this is what I do when I enter or open a case, this is how onboarding and intake happens at my firm. This is what it means. Once you are a client of the firm, this is where you go to find your documents. 

(23:47): 

This is how we communicate, this is how frequently you can expect to hear from me. Here are the key milestones where we will absolutely get together and discuss what’s happened. And then when you don’t hear from me, this is the way that I continue to nurture this relationship. Maybe that’s status updates. Maybe I just have a newsletter that goes out to clients. Once you start to think about what your process is, then it’s easier to put into place the soft touches that make sure that it’s still a human process. And that’s whether you’ve automated everything in your firm or not. You can automate status updates that are personalized and you can have ticklers that remind you when someone’s birthday is or when they first opened a matter. If you want to have anniversary messages that go out, all of these things can be done. But if you don’t think about what it is that the process is, you don’t have something to automate and amplify. 

(24:41): 

And I think that that’s something that we assume that, you know, just get the tech right, just get chat G P T and put whatever you want in there and it’ll just create the thing for you. But you still have to be a part of the process. You still have to be human and be open to that advice and counsel. And so I think the second step is really sitting down and designing from the minute, actually, I even tell when people come to me to consult at the bar, how do they find you all the way to how do they leave you? You should have some ideas of what you do and then what you want your ideal clients to do at each one of those phases. And I think that when you start to think about it in that this is a shared endeavor, it’s an I do, we do, and maybe there’s some places where they do, but when you can be clear about what those things are, it’s easier to design a process and to communicate that process with your clients. And I’ll tell you, being at the state bar outside of trust accounting issues, the number one complaint that we get from the public is a lack of communication. Can’t find my attorney paying them $10,000 that I can’t get a message back or those are the things when they’re calling for the complaints, they’re not able to communicate and get information from their attorneys. And having a good design around what that is will help. 

Stephanie Everett (26:04): 

Yeah, I mean it’s crazy in today’s world with all the tools that we do have at our disposal, that is still the big complaint come into the bar associations is this idea of lack of communication. 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (26:15): 

It is, and I’m like, I mean just about every law practice management software now has text messaging feature because we know that people are more able, willing to respond to a text, they see it faster. So there’s so many ways that you can literally set up a process to run for you. My theory is that a lot of us are practicing on autopilot either from how we saw other attorneys practice or whatever. We can manage that day because maybe we don’t have great systems and processes for ourselves. And so it becomes an afterthought, but really your client experience is the core part of your business. That is the thing that will differentiate you from any other attorney and other self-help options or other technological advances. And that’s the thing that people are coming to us for is to actually be able to engage with another human being around an issue and get that insight and that comradery that comes with working with someone that comes with fighting with someone, fighting with someone on your team to beat the system or whatever thing it is. And so we have to spend more time thinking about what it’s like to experience our firms and not just what the core deliverables are or any of those other things that can subsume our minds. And I think it’s no different, right, than thinking about your experience with opposing counsel or co-counsel all had an attorney I’m sure that you’ve had to work with because that’s who was on the other side. And it was like, I would never work with that person again. This entire experience was horrible. You don’t want your clients saying that. 

Stephanie Everett (27:59): 

Yeah, it’s such great reminders and when you can then think about that know how you want people to feel and just everything you’re saying is just reminding me how important information is to clients, even if they’ve been through a process like this before, a lot of times it is unnerving. When am I going to hear from my attorney? What is the next step? So the more that you can proactively provide that information to them, it just helps all around. It’s going to help them. They’re not going to call you as much. They’re going to be happier. They’re going to feel like they know what’s going on. And I think it’s getting out of our own way and realizing that stopping and taking the time to create that communication is worth your time. It may not feel like, because it’s so easy to stay in responsive land and it’s like no, if we can get proactive and intentional with it, actually solve a lot more problems on the front end or avoid them all together. 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (28:54): 

Absolutely. Absolutely. I always think about Stanley Tate who has Tate law and uses video so incredibly to walk his clients and potential clients through the different processes. And it’s like you can create video one time and use it multiple times and it’s a easier way to provide information because I think the other thing that we can get, I don’t want to say wrong that we can misunderstand about sharing information with clients is that not everybody wants to read a 10 paste treatise on something in a lot of legal jargon. And so how can you think about other mediums to share information? Yes, maybe you have a beautiful welcome brochure that you had designed and it’s fantastic, but maybe an infographic would be easier for your clients to understand about the process and could be a tool that you can continue to bring back out and say, all right, Stephanie, so last time we met, we were here, now we’re at this next place. 

(29:55): 

And they can see that as a visual representation rather ju just go back to that client handbook that I gave you. Page 72 talks about this thing. How can we make information more accessible in the way that we share it and thinking about how much is too much, right? I used to make that mistake all the time, particularly when I was representing parents in special education matters. I would be like, oh, and here’s the statute and these are all the things that change and this is, and they’re glazed over because they’re like, look lady, I have kids that I need to pick up. I’m really frustrated with the school. What’s the key points that I need? What do I need to take care of? How do I activate this information? And if I think we think about that on the front end, if we spend some time thinking about, great, I have to deliver this piece of great news or bad news to my client, how do I do that in a way that takes into consideration this isn’t the only thing going on in their lives. 

Stephanie Everett (30:52): 

Yes, I love all that. In fact, also if anyone’s interested, Stanley Tate, we did an interview with him, he’s podcast episode 3 83 on designing the life you want instead of the job you have. And it’s one of everybody’s favorite episodes because one, he’s just the coolest person in the world. And so he is, he’s so fun to listen to, but he gives some really good tips in that regard too on how he uses video and he’s doing really cool things. So I love that. And I love the reminder to think about the medium and the information we’re given to clients and is it in the way they want? Yes, please stop writing 10 page memos to your clients that they don’t want to read until they 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (31:33): 

Care about Don’t challenge yourself. What would a TikTok video of this look like? What’s a more abbreviated way? How can I use short form video Loom? I love Loom. You can create a video, you can see whether someone looked at it. So then it’s like, oh, I don’t know what’s going on. Hey, I sent you this video. Lemme send you the link again. Take a look. 

Stephanie Everett (31:54): 

Yeah, I love that idea of challenge yourself. It’s hard, but do it. Yeah, 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (32:00): 

Absolutely. 

Stephanie Everett (32:01): 

Well, as we wrap up, one of our core values on our team is around constantly learning and improving ourselves. And I’m just kind of curious if there’s something you’re working on right now and you’re learning, what is it? Because I love to hear how they’re working to improve themselves. 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (32:20): 

I love that. And I am an avid, I truly believe in coaching. So I’m in coaching groups around other people growing with folks I love to read. So I’m always trying to pick up a book to help me think differently about how I do things. I’m reading right now the Profitable Launch Blueprint, which is literally about how to plan to launch something. So if you’re starting into a new practice area, perhaps you’re offering a new service, maybe you’ve decided as a legal professional you want to have a podcast or a vlog or something that helps you to create content to stay top of mind with your clients. It kind of walks you through the process of sort of project management. And I started my career in big law, so it was like you’re just junior associate, you get this one little narrow piece of work and you do that. 

(33:15): 

And going from that to running my own law practice where it’s like, hi, here is the entire pie and all the stuff that you didn’t know was happening in and around you. One of the skills that I realized that I continue to have to develop is my own ability to manage projects. And that could be the matters that you have, your business development plan, your marketing plan, if you’re not outsourcing some of those things like each of these are projects. And so how do you manage them? How do you schedule things? How do you make sure that you’re putting the right thought energy around it? And so I love that. I also am just big on leadership. I truly believe that we lead at all levels. Whether you own the firm or you work for it, you’re a leader in that organization, you’re a leader in your community. 

(34:00): 

I think as a default of being an attorney or working in this area, people often look up to us. And so what does that mean? How do you grow as a leader? What are the things that you’re thinking about? How are you managing yourself so that you can show up happy, healthy, and whole in your work and you can give from your overflow rather than trying to pour from an empty cup? And I think that’s so important as we think about things like wellness and burnout in the legal profession is just how are we as leaders of ourselves, leaders in the spaces that we are just really managing the glows and grows that comes with being a leader. 

Stephanie Everett (34:40): 

I agree and love all that. And Nacoya, so happy you are on today. One thing I should mention, you are just really active on LinkedIn and you’re always posting such thoughtful posts, so I encourage everyone to follow you there and engage with you there because I think you are bringing great ideas to the profession and to our community as a whole. And I’m just so excited that we got to hang out and chat today. 

Nkoyo-Ene Effiong (35:06): 

Likewise, likewise. Big fan of what you guys are doing over there. 

Speaker 1 (35:13): 

The Lawyerist podcast is edited by Brittany Felix, are you ready to implement the ideas we discussed here into your practice, wondering what to do next? Here are your first two steps. First, if you haven’t read the Small Firm Roadmap yet, grab the first chapter for free at Lawyerist dot com slash book, looking for help beyond the book. Let’s chat about whether our coaching communities are right for you. Head to Lawyerist dot com slash community slash to schedule a 10 minute call with our team to learn more. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not endorsed by Legal Talk Network. Nothing said in this podcast is legal advice for you.  

Announcer: 

The Lawyerist Podcast is edited by Britany Felix. Are you ready to implement the ideas we discuss here into your practice? Wondering what to do next? Here are your first two steps. First. If you haven’t read The Small Firm Roadmap yet, grab the first chapter for free at Lawyerist.com/book. Looking for help beyond the book? Let’s chat about whether our coaching communities, are right for you. Head to Lawyerist.com/community/lab to schedule a 10-minute call with our team to learn more. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not endorsed by Legal Talk Network. Nothing said in this podcast is legal advice for you.