Creating a Culture of Learning, with Danielle DavisRoe

Announcer: 

Welcome to The Lawyerist Podcast, a series of discussions with entrepreneurs and innovators about building a successful law practice in today’s challenging and constantly changing legal market. Lawyerist supports attorneys, building client-centered, and future-oriented small law firms through community, content, and coaching both online and through the Lawyerist Lab. And now from the team that brought you The Small Firm Roadmap and your podcast hosts 

Speaker 1 (00:04): 

Welcome to the Lawyerist Podcast, a series of discussions with entrepreneurs and innovators about building a successful law practice. In today’s challenging and constantly changing legal market, Lawyerist supports attorneys building, client-centered and future-oriented small law firms through community content and coaching, both online and through the Lawyerist Lab. And now from the team that brought you the small firm roadmap and your podcast hosts. 

Jennifer Whigham (00:35): 

Hi, I’m Jennifer Whigham. 

Zack Glaser (00:36): 

And I’m Zack. And this is episode 442 of the Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today I’m talking to Danielle DavisRoe about training your teams in internal firm training and learning as you go. 

Jennifer Whigham (00:49): 

Today’s podcast is brought to you by Posh Virtual Receptionists, Clio, & LawPay, we wouldn’t be able to do the show without their support. Stay tuned. We’ll tell you more about them later on. 

Zack Glaser (01:00): 

So Jennifer Danielle is a new member of our team, but she’s not new to what she does. Let’s say that I don’t know her. How would you introduce her? 

Jennifer Whigham (01:11): 

So Danielle, she started on the Affinity side, which is the company that Lawyerist was acquired by in January. And Danielle had been working for nine years, I think, at Affinity doing all sorts of stuff. But ultimately, she’s a trainer. She would go on site to train on software, she would build training materials. I mean, she is an adult learning expert, a course content expert. She is beautifully brilliant at all of those things. And so when I think of Danielle, I really think of her being a consummate teacher who’s able to explain things in a way that makes sense for everyone, and also able to teach people how to explain things to other people. And she likes birds, which I like birds. So 

Zack Glaser (01:57): 

Again, you could have led with she likes 

Jennifer Whigham (01:59): 

Birds. I know. I always like to leave you waiting for the last little bit at the end. Right. 

Zack Glaser (02:05): 

So adult learning, training our teams, this is something that we don’t always think of. I know when I was running my practice, I would think of it and I’m like, oh, I should get my team trained on Excel. I should get my team trained on the platform that we’re using, but I never want to spend the time to do it. 

Jennifer Whigham (02:22): 

Yeah, it’s intimidating. 

Zack Glaser (02:24): 

Yeah. Now Danielle and I, I’m sure we’ll go into this in the interview, but she has helped us already internally with Lawyerist. We’ve switched from the Google Workspace platform into the Office 365 kind of environment, and she’s been huge on teaching both of us, frankly, how to use teams, how to use word better. She’s awesome with Word. 

Jennifer Whigham (02:49): 

She’s the Microsoft Word genius, not only at Affinity slash Lawyerist, but possibly in the world, 

Zack Glaser (02:56): 

Possibly in the world, as that possibly carries a lot of weight. But no, she’s fantastic at it. 

Jennifer Whigham (03:04): 

Yeah, she’s great. 

Zack Glaser (03:06): 

Well, I guess then without further ado, here’s my conversation with Danielle. 

Danielle DavisRoe (03:14): 

Hi, I’m Danielle and I am a consultant and lab coach with Lawyerist and Affinity Consulting Group. I practiced law for a couple of years, about a decade ago when I found my passion for better using technology, better working processes around technology, and just bringing everyone up to speed on all of that. 

Zack Glaser (03:41): 

So Danielle, first off, I really appreciate you being here. I love that you’re on the show. I always love what you have to say, but my question is how is that going? Bringing people up to speed, 

Danielle DavisRoe (03:52): 

It’s going really well. Getting people up to speed on technology’s always a hurdle. Some people are super excited to learn more and others are being drug into it, but when I work with people, I’m learning more about technology. They always have at least one takeaway, if not a lot more than one takeaway that’s going to make their life better. At the end of the day, something is going to be less frustrating, it’s going to be more efficient, something is going to be better, and so that’s what works really well. 

Zack Glaser (04:25): 

I love that. I love that walking away from law offices and being able to say they’re more efficient, they’re more productive, or just running a happier firm even we can do that with technology. And so without kind of bearing the lead too much, we’re obviously talking about training your team on technology and adult learning inside of your firm. So you’ve been doing that aspect of your job for how long? 

Danielle DavisRoe (04:51): 

For almost a decade at Affinity, but I actually did that while I was practicing law. I trained my law firm’s very first paralegal on how to do that. Actually, it’s a law clerk. I worked at a courthouse where I was training people on new technology there. So over a decade at this point. 

Zack Glaser (05:07): 

So this was just kind of a thing that you not necessarily stumbled into, but just always had an interest in even through your law career, learning about law as well? 

Danielle DavisRoe (05:18): 

Yeah, I don’t think I would’ve told you that at the time. I don’t think I realized it, but yes, it’s something I am very passionate about. 

Zack Glaser (05:25): 

Same thing with me. I was actually in the IT department for my law school, and I wouldn’t have told you that I was interested in legal technology at all. So yeah, it’s interesting where our lives lead us. 

Danielle DavisRoe (05:38): 

Yes, it is. 

Zack Glaser (05:39): 

So let me kind of get into the guts of this a little more because people probably don’t want to hear about our law school adventures in IT and software not really what people are listening to us for in their car. My first question with team technology and kind of training people on is really, I ran a small law firm, but what does that kind of look like for a small team? You trained the first paralegal, and I think a lot of people are in that position where it’s like, I know I need to train people, but I got one person, it’s me and my assistant, or it’s me and another associate and our assistant. So how does this training look like for them? 

Danielle DavisRoe (06:19): 

I think it depends on the exact sort of training we’re talking about. If you bring someone new in the firm and they need to learn software that you have, not necessarily your specific processes, but let’s say you’ve got a practice management system like Cleo or a document management system and they’ve never used that before. I say outsource that training. If there’s just a few of you and you’ve got way too much work on your plate and you can bring in someone else or you can get them set up with some learning online for that so that you don’t have to take time away from the actual practice of law, that’s going to be time well spent. But if we’re talking about things that are specific to your firm, things like processes, anything that’s uniquely set up right, Cleo, we customize for each firm whatever software you’re using, the customizations you probably need to do in-house unless you’ve got someone you can rely on who understands your setup. But for anything that’s a little bit more generic, if you’ve got your plateful, don’t add that to your plate. Now you’ve got some time on your hands, by all means do it. But most people don’t. They’ve got more work than they know what to do with. 

Zack Glaser (07:24): 

Right. Well, and even if, yeah, you do have time on your hands, maybe it’s better spent going and getting into marketing or advertising or more shaking babies and kissing hands or something. So how do I know though that my associate or my assistant needs or could use some training because okay, I hire somebody and they’re proficient at Excel, but we all know that people, anybody could be more proficient at Excel. I mean, there are Excel championships every year where people compete in Excel, so we could always go pretty absurd with that. How do we know when it’s worth it to kind of train somebody more? 

Danielle DavisRoe (08:05): 

That’s a great question. I would say if you’ve hired someone new and they’ve listed that they’re proficient in Word or Excel on their resume, don’t take that at its face value. It’s not that they’re lying, it’s just people don’t know what they don’t know. And so most people list that because everyone’s looking for it, but they have no idea that they’re just at the tip of the iceberg. There’s actually some computerized assessments out there that you can give people that are legal specific and with not a huge time investment on their part and no time investment on your part because it’s all computerized. It can actually check their skills and see where they could benefit from some training and where they’re solid, and that would be an easy way to go about it. 

Zack Glaser (08:48): 

Okay. Do you have some of those that you would kind of use that we might be able to drop into the show notes 

Danielle DavisRoe (08:54): 

Here? Yes, I do. Let’s get those into the show notes. 

Zack Glaser (08:57): 

Yeah, absolutely. On the fly. So I know you say it’s a little bit of time investment for that person to use this, and it’s no time investment for me, but obviously some of this is going to take some of my firm’s time. How do I have the time to do this? I’ve got my associates, my assistants, my paralegals, they’re working on stuff that’s billable hours. 

Danielle DavisRoe (09:16): 

Sure. So when it comes to the actual training, you need to think about the fact that when someone gets really good training and they’re able to use software more efficiently, that’s going to pay off in the long run. So it can be really hard when we’re drowning in work to set aside time now, but it’s really important to do that because a lot of times where all of that time is going is work. That’s not actual legal work. It’s in fighting with formatting and word or manually calculating things or clicking around in your practice management system inefficiently because they can’t find the button in the feature they’re looking for or because every software has at least six different ways of doing something, some of which are more efficient than others. They’re doing it the roundabout way. And so I think it’s important just to make time, whether it’s 15 minutes a day or 30 minutes a day to focus on that. It could be while you’re drinking your coffee in the morning, you don’t have to set aside huge chunks of time to become better at using your software. 

Zack Glaser (10:15): 

So I could potentially have a platform or something that helps me use this software that does only take 15 minutes or 30 minutes a day or broken up into small chunks like that. I don’t have to send people off to four hours or half a day of learning at the local high school or something like that to get these things done. 

Danielle DavisRoe (10:35): 

Now, I don’t think so back when computers were relatively new, there was a much steeper learning curve, but most people are pretty proficient with using a computer in this day and age, and it’s just a matter of figuring out where the buttons are to do things more efficiently. And I think when we send people to four hours of training, they get into cognitive overload and they can’t process everything they’ve learned. So smaller chunks are more effective, 

Zack Glaser (11:03): 

So we can set aside time weekly to do this, and when am I done? I want to be trained and I want to be done with this. When am I done? 

Danielle DavisRoe (11:12): 

That’s a great question. I would say we should always be hungry to learn more, but learn about different things. So if you decide you want to learn more about Excel right now because you realize maybe you’ve got some shortcomings there, get to the point where you’re feeling proficient with Excel. You feel like things are working efficiently, the more you learn, the more you’ll realize what and don’t know, get to the point where you’re comfortable there. But I would say never stop learning because it keeps you on your toes, it keeps you sharp, and there’s always things we can be learning. 

Zack Glaser (11:45): 

My mother would love that you say that. My mom’s a teacher for years and years and years and has always told us that. So how do we never stop learning? Then when I practice and when I do what I do, I have a tendency a lot of times to run down shiny objects or go down rabbit holes, and I know that’s not what I should be doing. It feels productive, feels like I’ve been doing some good stuff, but I can’t bill it. And I also know that really it’s not necessarily productive. So how do I do that? In reality, 

Danielle DavisRoe (12:18): 

I think you have to set a timer. If you’re one of the people who gets excited about new shiny objects, which I love, I love learning, and you can go down that rabbit hole all day, set a timer, give yourself 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and then you’re done for the day and you can come back to it another day when the timer’s up. You just have to set some limits for yourself. 

Zack Glaser (12:37): 

Oh my God, that’s the worst thing ever. I would snooze that timer so much. It would be a Friday afternoon and I would just snooze the heck out of the timer. So obviously that’s kind of personalization of this, but if I want my team to be doing this, how can I kind of set this up, I guess, culturally to make this happen and do it in a way that is I as the owner, know that everybody is moving forward? Is there kind of tips or tricks on doing that? 

Danielle DavisRoe (13:08): 

I think if you want to build a culture of learning, one of the best things you can do is gamify it. There are all sorts of different ways to build gamification into it, but that makes it fun and exciting. And if you’ve got some small prizes for people when they accomplish things, maybe you set out that someone’s going to watch six hours of word videos or two hours of word videos over the course of a month or two months when they complete it. Maybe you take everyone in the office out to lunch, maybe you bring in lattes instead of the normal coffee maker. It doesn’t have to be something huge, but something that celebrates success when it comes to learning. All too often we’re celebrating success when it comes to billable hours, landing big deals, winning the case, and we’re not celebrating warning success. 

Zack Glaser (13:57): 

I like that. I like at the end of the week maybe who, who’s put together the most hours of, well, maybe not the most hours, but who, who’s hit their goals. 

Danielle DavisRoe (14:08): 

Absolutely. 

Zack Glaser (14:08): 

I did 45 hours of word training this week and build none. I don’t think anybody’s really looking for that. 

Danielle DavisRoe (14:15): 

No, you don’t want to over incentivize it, right? You still need people to get their work done. 

Zack Glaser (14:19): 

Right. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. We need to take a little break for a word from our sponsors. Once we do that, we’ll be back with Danielle talking about lifelong learning in the legal field and how to train the rest of our staff. 

Zack Glaser: 

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And we’re back and we’re talking with Danielle Davis Rowe about training for teams and training your team in your law firm. Danielle, that kind of brings me to you actually do a lot of internal training for us as we from the Lawyerist team have kind of tried to combine with the Affinity team. We’ve gone from Google Workspaces to the Office 365 environment, and you’ve done a lot of training. What are some of the things that you’ve had us do in order to get integrated into this system? 

Danielle DavisRoe (18:02): 

Change is always hard, even the most positive change in the world. So it was great sitting down with everyone, showing them some of the features that you guys need most often and where that’s at in Microsoft Outlook as opposed to Gmail. And one of my favorite things that I have done is explore some of the features that are available in Microsoft Office that weren’t available in Google Workspaces. So especially with Google Sheets, there’s a lot of cool things that can do, but Excel can do even more. So I was really excited to sit down with Paige and show her how we can automate a lot of the things that were being done manually for quarterly reporting and things like that too, give her some time back in her day. 

Zack Glaser (18:47): 

So do you find that that’s kind of the way that you can bring people into implementation of new technology and learning about new technology is giving them those little gains? 

Danielle DavisRoe (18:57): 

Those gains are what’s really important and what I think we really need to focus on when implementing new technology? Now, it depends. Going from Google to Microsoft office, we’ve got one software that’s roughly the equivalent of the other. And so it’s kind of like the word perfect to word transition that most firms have gone through. Now you just need to know where the new feature is and how it works. But if you’re talking about implementing brand new software, maybe you’ve never had document management before and you have it now, people might need more of the basics and not so much of the tips and tricks. And where are the features they need a little bit more of a foundational set of skills. 

Zack Glaser (19:37): 

Is there kind of a learning curve time period that I could expect? Is it generally when we introduce a law practice management platform, people could probably be up in two weeks or is it pretty variable? 

Danielle DavisRoe (19:51): 

It’s really variable. It depends what they’re coming from and what platform they’re going to. Some of the platforms are really, really easy to pick up and learn and other ones because they have more powerful features built into them with power comes complexity. And so it takes longer to pick it up and learn it. And it also depends on the individual person. Some people pick up on technology faster, some are less afraid to click around and see where stuff is, where some people are very hesitant, they’re worried about breaking things. 

Zack Glaser (20:24): 

Yeah, I think giving people or some people giving them the bumpers is really good saying, okay, well if you stay in this little area, you’re not going to break anything. But then they’re going to stay in that little area and kind of not branch out. So one of the products, but we used it internally that you have actually written for Affinity because Affinity has a lot of downloads and modules and things like that. And you actually showed us a Microsoft Teams download kind of a document that you can go through, and I was very impressed with that. How many others do we have? How many of those kind of products have you been able to do? And let me go ahead and make this question really complex. And how often do you update that? How do you stay on top of that? 

Danielle DavisRoe (21:07): 

That’s a great question. So in terms of written products, we’ve got about a dozen legal specific manuals that are filled with screenshots and step by step instructions. And then we also have a ton of video content out there in a wide variety of platforms. We officially update the written manuals once a year. We release those in January. However, for Microsoft Teams where they’re constantly changing the interface and introducing new features, that gets updated more often. As you may know, they’re rolling out a new interface with teams. It’s in beta right now, so we’re going to wait till it gets out of beta before we update that in the manual because not all the features are there in the beta interface, but that’s coming and it will probably be before January. But otherwise, we tried to do a big release of everything in January because all of these new programs where you’re paying a subscription fee, they’re very slowly tweaking the interface on you. It’s no longer when you went from Microsoft Word 2003 to 2007 and you’re like, whoa, everything is different. They’re slowly changing it on you, and so you might not even notice some of the changes now when they move the navigation buttons and outlook to the upper left-hand corner, everybody noticed that, but some of the other changes they’re making are so small, you’d have no idea it was changed because it’s just very intuitive. And so that’s why we’re trying to push updates once a year to make sure everything stays fresh. 

Zack Glaser (22:37): 

Okay. Well, so you are at the Affinity Lawyerist team. You’re kind of our, our learning director, if I’m even kind of saying that, right? But helping other people learn how to do these things. What are some of the projects that you’re working on to help Lawyerist do this internally with their own teams? 

Danielle DavisRoe (23:01): 

Several projects I’m working on, we have got a training membership program where we have hundreds of videos on demand from everything in Microsoft 365 that we think firms are using regularly to practice management systems, to document management systems. We also have some standalone courses. I’m in the middle of rerecording our Word course because they’ve changed the interface enough that it’s time to refresh that. So we’ve got a lot going on to make it easy for people to stay up to date without necessarily needing to hire someone to come in and do a whole training program for them if they just want to be able to do things in small bite size chunks while they drink their coffee in the morning. 

Zack Glaser (23:43): 

Okay. So going a little bit different direction here, because I’ve got you here and I’ve got you captive. If Lawyerist want to do their own sort of training, I’ve run into a lot of Lawyerist and I’m sure that you have too, that are looking at using learning management systems, LMSs, what’s your take on that, getting on the other side of that as a lawyer training clients? 

Danielle DavisRoe (24:07): 

I think that is a great idea. There’s a lot of learning management systems out there. I would advise any lawyer who’s looking to get their own learning management system going to train clients to focus on keeping it simple. A lot of the LMSs out there have a ton of bells and whistles, but with that complexity, it just, it’s harder to pick up and learn. There’s a lot of systems out there where you can record a video, you can upload it in the system, add some text, add some files, and it pretty much does all the work for you. And you don’t have a whole lot of levers you need to worry about on the backend. So I would focus on finding a system that makes it simple or you can just record videos and upload files. 

Zack Glaser (24:47): 

Okay. Well, and so if I’m trying to set up some sort of learning management and I’m setting up a program, is it better to do kind of longer form, shorter form, how do I design these programs? Because you’re behind the scenes designing this type of program for Lawyerist and have been doing that for Affinity. How do I as a lawyer kind of go about envisioning it? 

Danielle DavisRoe (25:09): 

Yeah, you want to keep things shorter. Everyone has a very, very limited attention span in this day and age. If you can keep videos to about three minutes, that’s perfect. I would say no more than 10 to 12. And I know sometimes you need to get into the meat of things, but you always want to supplement all of that with written materials and video’s really popular right now, but there’s a lot of people who might be looking for your content while they’re at work, and they don’t want that plane over their speakers if they don’t have a headset that they’re using. And so written materials can be really helpful there if they’re laying in bed at night praising the internet on their phone next to their spouse who’s sleeping, they don’t want the sound there as well. So I think it’s really important to convey the information if you’re going to do video or audio also in a written format. And there’s a lot of research out there that says when people are looking to learn, it’s important as an adult to give them choice. When you’ve got students in the classroom who are in first, second grade, they’re all excited about however the teacher wants to present it. But as adults, giving them choice really helps with it. So giving someone written versus video where they can choose between them is going to help them retain the information better. 

Zack Glaser (26:22): 

That’s why we would necessarily have a video written and then maybe even something audio, maybe a test of some sort as well to make sure that people have some semblance of comprehension of what you’re doing. Right. 

Danielle DavisRoe (26:35): 

Yes. And testing can be great if you’re really looking for people to retain things, testing them just with a quick knowledge check, a single question a week later can actually help them retain even more of what they learned than just what you’re asking them about. 

Zack Glaser (26:51): 

So in the courses that you’re creating or have created, are there ways that if I send my associates and assistance to that, that they can kind of say, Hey, I did a good job. I got through this, I understand what’s going on. 

Danielle DavisRoe (27:06): 

Yeah, we tried to build knowledge checks into our courses whenever possible. And a lot of our courses come with a certificate of completion. So if someone wants to prove that they made it through our course, they’ve got an actual certificate and they can even share that on LinkedIn if they want with a single click. 

Zack Glaser (27:22): 

Oh, very cool. Very cool. All right. I could actually talk about LMSs with you all day and helping people try to implement technology, but unfortunately we’ve only got a certain amount of time I’d like to leave people with if I’m trying to teach my crew. What are your low-hanging fruit areas that you think people could really jump into first? Where’s the first place that most law firms should kind of look in this training? 

Danielle DavisRoe (27:48): 

I would look at Microsoft Word first. Assuming you’re drafting your documents a Microsoft Word, most people are, there is a lot of stuff baked into Microsoft Word that’s just not obvious. You should be using it on the face of it. Microsoft made some silly choices when they rolled out styles, for example, they’re blue and they’re the wrong font. And so everyone in a law firm looks at them and they’re like, why would I use that? It’s clearly not a feature for law firms when in fact, if they use them, their life would be so much better. They just need to know how to customize them. And once they’re customized, they can just keep using them going forward, and so they can make some huge changes. Or the fact that there’s a default font in Microsoft Word that randomly pops up on you, and it’s because words never come out and told you there’s a default font. And by changing the font when you open the document, it didn’t change the default font like you might think. And so that’s why it keeps popping up. So there’s some stuff there that you can learn like that default fi in a matter of 30 seconds that will make everything less frustrating. 

Zack Glaser (28:49): 

Oh, absolutely. Less frustrating and a little bit faster as well, I think. Yes. So kind of going into Microsoft Word, I think the biggest question that I have as an attorney is can I learn how to do a table of authorities or is it just magic? And some people stumble across it and then copy and paste the table of authorities for the rest of their life? 

Danielle DavisRoe (29:13): 

You can absolutely learn how to do a table of authorities. Now, I am going to say full disclosure, they are my least favorite feature in Microsoft Word, but you can learn how to do ’em. The key is to do all of your entries and then insert your table of authorities at the last possible moment. Once you’re good at it and you’re comfortable with your table of authorities, inserting it at the last minute is not a big deal. But the problem is a lot of people only do an appellate brief once a year. Right. And so they’re not doing it all the time, which makes it hard. 

Zack Glaser (29:46): 

Okay. Okay. That makes sense. And I think a lot of this is that we don’t do it over and over. And so having some of these documents or documentation potentially to go back to look at when you go, how did I do that again? Might be super helpful. 

Danielle DavisRoe (30:00): 

Yeah, I think it’s important to have some quick reference guides to just refer to for those things you don’t do often enough to remember how to do it. All. The training in the world on something like Table of Authorities, if you only do it once a year or once every five years, is not going to be overly helpful in the moment when you need to get it done. 

Zack Glaser (30:16): 

Fair enough. Okay. Well, Danielle, I think that’s a about all the time that we have. I really appreciate you being with us. I always enjoy talking to you. You always bring something up that I did not know, so I’m always learning from you, which I guess it’s really the point, right? 

Danielle DavisRoe (30:31): 

It is. It’s been a pleasure. 

Zack Glaser (30:35): 

Thank you very much, and I will see you next time and frankly, probably see you tomorrow. 

Danielle DavisRoe (30:40): 

Thanks. 

Speaker 1 (30:43): 

The Lawyerist podcast is edited by Brittany Felix, are you ready to implement the ideas we discussed here into your practice? Wondering what to do next? Here are your first two steps. First, if you haven’t read the Small Firm Roadmap yet, grab the first chapter for free at Lawyerist dot com slash book, looking for help beyond the book. Let’s chat about whether our coaching communities are right for you. Head to Lawyerist dot com slash community slash to schedule a 10 minute call with our team to learn more. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not endorsed by Legal Talk Network. Nothing said in this podcast is legal advice for you. 

Announcer: 

The Lawyerist Podcast is edited by Britany Felix. Are you ready to implement the ideas we discuss here into your practice? Wondering what to do next? Here are your first two steps. First. If you haven’t read The Small Firm Roadmap yet, grab the first chapter for free at Lawyerist.com/book. Looking for help beyond the book? Let’s chat about whether our coaching communities, are right for you. Head to Lawyerist.com/community/lab to schedule a 10-minute call with our team to learn more. The views expressed by the participants are their own and are not endorsed by Legal Talk Network. Nothing said in this podcast is legal advice for you.