What Lawyers Get Wrong About Teaching Clients and Teams, with Danielle Hall

Zack Glaser: 

Hi, I’m Zack. 

Stephanie Everett: 

And I’m Stephanie, and this is episode 597 of the Lawyers Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today, I’m talking with Danielle Hall about how adults learn and why this matters for your clients, your team, and if you teach CLEs or do other public speaking. 

Zack Glaser: 

Well, speaking of adults learning, Stephanie, we obviously have our business strategists and our lab program that you’ve over the last little bit have kind of been rethinking and re, I guess, structuring. Probably a decent way of saying some of the educational things that we have in there. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. We always want to revisit our content, make sure it’s not stale. And so it felt like a good time to do that as we’ve also been rolling out our small firm dashboard. So when you Join Lab, one of the things we have is this software that we use that really maps out all the key parts of your business. And really, it’s not like practice management. Practice management software is where you manage your matters and your clients. And your accounting software is obviously where you work on accounting. 

Zack Glaser: 

Manage your accounting. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Right. But where do you keep all the other stuff for your business? For your goals for the business and the priorities- 

Zack Glaser: 

Like 

Stephanie Everett: 

KPIs? It’s that, but it’s also, what’s the vivid vision? What are you building towards in three years? And what’s your business model? Have you thought through who you serve, how you serve them, what you offer, like those core offers? Is your pricing right? Do you have the capacity to deliver those services for that price and hit your goals and your revenue targets? I mean, all of this comes together in your business strategy. And it may not feel very sexy, but it’s super important. 

And if I’m frank, a lot of lawyers sort of skip over it or they just sort of cobble it together and maybe they just aren’t very thoughtful about it like, “Oh, I’ll just charge this and I’m not sure, but it kind of seems right.” And that’s okay to get started. But when we start working with Labsters, we want to dig in a little bit and confirm and be more intentional and thoughtful and maybe identify that might be a place where we want to visit or revisit in the future. And so we’ve been updating all that content, but I think as I’m sure people here will be shocked to know, one of the cool things that we’ve done in the past- 

Zack Glaser: 

I think this is cool. I mean, that’s why I do it, right? 

Stephanie Everett: 

I mean, I do. I’m having fun over here. This is what I’m doing all day every day. People wonder, what do I do? This is part of it. But in the past and before the BAI world, we would give people worksheets. Yeah. Right. If we were going to try to help you identify your ideal client or build your vivid vision or think about your goals, we’d give you, I mean, a plain old boring PDF and say, “Here’s some questions to think through and capture your answers.” And then we’d share it and work through it on a call. And we’d have a place. I mean, we’d still had online resources where we’d put it, but that was the nature of the work. And I mean, if you think about probably, that’s how you do online courses, right? You’re going to have 

Zack Glaser: 

Like … Yeah. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Well, now all the components that I just discussed, we have the option if people are up for it. You don’t have to do it. Look, there’s still the plain old, boring, I don’t know, fine worksheet. 

Zack Glaser: 

Hey, you can schedule meetings by just going back and forth and being like, “I’m available between…” But it’s easier if you use scheduling links, right? Yeah. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. So we still have the old way and there’s no judgment if you want to use them. And in fact, some of the things, actually a couple of the modules, you really do need to use our templated spreadsheets because it has all the formula. I mean, when we’re getting into that work, we’re building out formulas and calculations and doing math that you don’t want to have to do. 

But you also have, we have these AI prompts that you can copy and paste into your favorite LLM, whichever one you use, and it takes you through a guided conversation. So instead of just filling out a worksheet, it covers a lot of the same questions, but it has the ability, because I’ve trained it in my prompt to do so, to maybe push back, or maybe you get to a question and you’re like, “I don’t know. What are you asking for? Or I don’t know how to answer this. ” This is where the AI could say, “Well, let me help you through that, or let me give you some examples.” Or Zack, you said your goal was to hire more people, but that’s not a great goal. How can we make that a little bit more specific? And so the AI will work with you in this guided interview through all these different steps that you’re working on for your business model and give you then a work product that you share with your business strategists that we then use together to continue to refine and build off of or to answer questions. 

So just, I don’t know, I think it’s fun. 

Zack Glaser: 

And 

Stephanie Everett: 

Super valuable. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah. Yes. You’re adjusting these foundations to accept and meet the artificial intelligence products that we have where they are. I’ve shifted some of my advice related to choosing legal technology or writing your processes to incorporate artificial intelligence. And you’re bringing that directly into the foundation’s processes of what we do. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. And so I think it’s fun to do it this way. I’m excited for people to get their hands on it and to give me feedback and to see what it is, but also this is super important work for your business. And again, I know some people are like, “Oh, when do we get to the fun stuff?” And I said to the team yesterday, “This is the fun stuff because this is the stuff that’s going to give you the confidence that you’re building a sustainable business, not just out there winging it, practicing law, taking whatever walks in the door. We’re going to say no.” I was on a call with a, well, she’s on New Labster now because she joined, but she was telling me the simple answer of what practice areas do you serve? And of course she was like, “Oh, personal injury, family law, estate planning, and I do a little real estate every now and then.” And I’m like, “And how many people on your team?” “One. 

“”Okay. So you have four different businesses. Let me just be very clear to anyone listening right now.” No, your marketing’s different. The people you’re trying to attract are different. The systems and processes you need to deliver those services are different. So maybe you could have some roommates. And I love, that was her term. She was like, “These might not need to live together.” And I was like, “Yeah, family law and PI probably don’t need to live together, but maybe the family law and estate planning makes sense in a bright world.” 

Zack Glaser: 

So 

Stephanie Everett: 

This is the work we do and we help you say, “Okay, you want to build a business. What do you want this business to look like? ” And then we have to map out everything from what are your core offers? How do you market it? How do you talk about it? How do you price it? How do you plan the capacity for how you’re going to get it done? And if, by the way, you’re currently one of those people that you’ve got income coming from four places, we’re not just going to cut off one of your limbs and make you suffer. We’re going to come up with that transition plan. How do we start moving so that in the next 18 to 24 months, you have the right client mix and mix of types of matters that you want to meet those revenue goals that we helped you set. 

So it all works together as what I hope people are hearing. 

Zack Glaser: 

I love it. I love your enthusiasm on this, Stephanie. And just kind of as a transition here, if people want to hear more of your enthusiasm, they can always go to Lawyers.com. They can always contact you directly. Yeah, 

Stephanie Everett: 

Just reach out. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah. Or they can, you’re on LinkedIn, you’re on Instagram, you’re in all these places where they can obviously email us at email@lawyyerist.com. But now I’d like to hear your conversation with Danielle about adult learning. 

Danielle Hall: 

Hello, I’m Danielle Hall. I’m a business strategist with Affinity Consulting, and I help law firms run better businesses. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Hi, Danielle. Welcome to the show. I’m excited to talk to you because I think this is a topic that not a lot of people talk about, which is adult learning and because apparently adults, we learn different than we did when we were kids. 

Danielle Hall: 

Yes, we absolutely learned different than we used to when we were kids. If you know anything about adult learning, that’s one of the prime core principles is that we don’t sit there and learn anymore just because we’re told to. We actually have different needs, different wants and different desires in our learning outcomes. All 

Stephanie Everett: 

Right. Well, maybe some people are sitting here listening and they’re thinking, “Okay, Danielle, that sounds cool, but why should I keep listening to the show and learn about adult learners?” And when you and I were prepping for the show, you really brought up some good points to me. So I’ll just kick it off. Why should we as lawyers care about adult learners? 

Danielle Hall: 

Well, my opinion for what it’s worth is that as attorneys, we’re constantly teaching people things in several different arenas and aspects. Of course, there are those of us that are like me and you that like to go out there and teach continuing legal education programs. Maybe we have some listeners that are interested in doing that, but don’t even know where to start. But I think even beyond that, we’re all potentially in leadership positions maybe. Maybe you’re out there leading teams, managing groups, maybe you’re mentoring. I have a lot of attorney friends that I know that do that as well, but just on a day-to-day basis in our interactions with our clients, that’s also an area where we are teaching others as we are working with them. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. I really loved that framing of like, as lawyers, we’re teaching, we’re teaching our clients, we’re teaching other lawyers and our team, the people who work with us. That really resonated with me, especially around clients because that was one that I was like, “Oh yeah, totally makes sense when you say that. ” So let’s dive in. What are some of the things that show up differently that we need to be thinking about when we think about conveying information to adults? 

Danielle Hall: 

Whenever we’re interacting with adults and we’re conveying information, I think the most important thing to recognize is that as adults, we bring something different to the table than what we used to do as children. When we were children, we would go to the classroom because we were told to go, we would have a teacher sit there, tell us what it was that we were going to learn. We’d have a really structured environment. As adults, we come with different experiences than we were as children. And as a result, we have opinions, we have backgrounds, we have different roles and different environments that we’re in on a daily basis. And so that’s really going to shape how we come to the table as adult learners. And so as a result, we’re going to want more in that learning process overall. 

Stephanie Everett: 

As the teachers, how do we use that? What am I supposed to do with that? So if I’m trying to teach you something, you’re going to come with your opinions. Do I just need to be ready for more questions or do I actually need to change my approach? 

Danielle Hall: 

You actually need to change your approach. If we take it back to kind of that CLE concept for those of us that teach in the CLE environment, even though in a lot of states it’s a mandatory legal education, I think some of us walk in with the mindset that our learners are going to be sitting there because they have to. When in fact, those learners are still going to have desires and wants and what it is that they’re receiving from that education, that doesn’t change even though we may be in a mandatory state. And so as a result, taking into account these different experiences, these different backgrounds, what we come with as prior knowledge, for instance, all needs to be taken into account in that design process if you’re designing CLEs, if you’re interacting with clients, recognizing that your clients are coming with experiences and maybe even prior knowledge, I mean, they’re probably going to ChatGPT anyways, right? 

And so how we then deliver that information in response to it is more than just being prepared for different questions. It actually involves the delivery of information. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Cool. Well, I’ll keep that in mind. What else? What else do we need to know on this topic? Because I feel like there’s a lot. 

Danielle Hall: 

Yeah, there is actually a lot. And so as a result of this different need for what we’re wanting in our education, recognizing the fact that for most adults, we’re going to want to answer right away what’s in it for that particular learner. That’s probably the most important thing. As adults, we want to know what’s in it for me. And then from that, we’re likely going to want some immediate skillsets that we can put into place right away. So if we go back to that concept of CLEs, I know you and I have delivered a lot, we’ve sat through a lot and everybody can probably talk about the experience that they have where they go into the room and it’s the talking head and it’s the slideshow PowerPoint and it’s probably a lot of information on that slideshow. Information overload is what we’re having happen in this particular instance. 

And it’s not bad intent a lot of time on your presenters. The way that we present more on what it relies upon is just this old way of doing things is how we’ve always done continuing legal education, right? I feel 

Stephanie Everett: 

Like you’re framing it. I feel you’re being so kind in the way you’re … I’m like, boring is the word that comes to my mind. It’s awful. I don’t want to sit through anyone reading a really long slide to me, honestly. 

Danielle Hall: 

Right. And you’re not going to get anything from that, right? That’s where we go to that aspect of while it might be mandatory, I sit there, whether or not I learn from you is optional. And what you present to me is really going to determine whether or not I have buy-in and what it is that you’re actually saying and what it is that you’re trying to provide to me. And so switching how you view that, how you prepare for that, and recognizing the fact that as a CLE presenter, for instance, that even program description and title matter right from the very beginning before you even walk into the room to deliver the program as it relates to an adult learner, because it goes back to the why. Are we giving them the why? And ultimately, adult learners want to know what is the problem that you’re going to actually solve for me? 

And so in those program descriptions, it becomes really important to make that clear, to tell them what the problem is that you’re going to solve and then actually deliver on that promise once you walk into the room. Yes. 

Stephanie Everett: 

I’m sure most of us are sitting here thinking, yes, there’s nothing worse than sitting in a CLE or any kind of presentation and you think, wait, I thought you were going to do this and then they don’t deliver on that promise. Super frustrating. Yeah, 

Danielle Hall: 

Absolutely. And when you look at it from the context of the client’s perspective, I’m coming in with experience. I’m also coming in with things like fear based upon my experiences if I’m coming to you to solve a problem for me. And if I walk into a room and you give me information overload as a client, just like we sometimes maybe do as CLE presenters, that is going to overwhelm and cause a ton of anxiety and is not going to ultimately accomplish what it is that you want to accomplish with a client. And so looking at it from that point of view, then asking yourselves things like, “Well, how am I delivering this information? Am I just telling the client, here’s what the statute says?” Because I’m not really giving them the important information that they want and that’s, how does this impact me? And so instead maybe saying things like, “Here is how the rule might impact your case, your timeline, your goals,” and really building that connective tissue, then ultimately in the end, the client is going to have better understanding of what is actually going on in their case. 

Stephanie Everett: 

You keep talking about information overload and I totally get that. And I’m wondering if sometimes, especially with clients, they might not know this area. They obviously didn’t go to law school or maybe sometimes we might be dealing with someone who didn’t go to law school. If it’s a general counsel, then maybe a different story. How do you gauge how much information is enough versus that overload and should we … As you’re sitting here talking, I’m almost thinking like, should we even structure that differently? Be aware that maybe I have to give this to my client in bite-sized pieces over the course of the work we’re going to do together instead of trying to dump it all on them at once. 

Danielle Hall: 

Absolutely. I think that’s a good point, that bite-sized pieces of information, that old saying less is more, might actually be the case when we’re talking about adult learners, because in addition to those experiences, we also bring some of the things like time constraints, the ability to focus and have attention because we have 50 million other things going on. And so sometimes just providing all of the information as possible that you can in a given meeting might not be impactful. They might not take everything away from that interaction with you that you needed them to take. And so having that approach of sometimes less is more, particularly when I have to really explain something to a client or I have to deliver a piece of news or something that they really have to digest in order to make a decision, focusing in on that one singular thing may be the path that you need to take so that way the client walks away with better understanding. 

And then you have the aspect of follow up as well. For adult learners, having something to take back with them, that’s useful. It goes back to that, how does this impact me and what can I do with this information? Those short follow-up, here’s what we discussed messages can become so important in the learning process for a client. Same with an attorney walking into your CLE. That’s why sometimes those materials and really drafting materials that can actually be useful can also aid and help in the adult learning process. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. And I guess this would apply to our team members too. I know someone gave me the advice recently. Well, honestly, it may have been ChatGPT if I want to give credits too. I was preparing a message that I wanted to deliver to the team and I wanted to get it right. So I was really working on a draft. I didn’t want to just come in and ad lib this. So I really was thinking through it and I think I was using my chat as a thought partner to think through how I wanted to deliver this message and make sure all the points landed. And it said to me, “This is great and you should follow it up after you deliver this to everybody in the team meeting, you should follow it up with a written notice written in your team’s chat because one of the things it said is when you’re emotional, you’re not processing at the same speed and you’re trying to touch on some heavy subjects. 

And so some people may not take it all in if you just say it to them.” I thought that was super helpful because I was like, “Oh, okay. So I need to follow it up.” So I had both ready to go. I had my notes for the meeting and then I had a message ready to go and follow it up immediately. So those people who wanted to go back and read it and absorb it that way it could. 

Danielle Hall: 

Yeah, that’s a great point. And essentially meeting the learner where they’re at, everybody learns differently. So when you dive into these concepts of adult learning, there’s so many other theories that are out there beyond just kind of the general adult learning theory, but you even have the things like, “Is somebody an auditory learner? Are they a listener? Are they a visual person?” And so the more ways you can package your information to provide to an individual, the more ways and opportunities they have to actually digest that information. For sure. 

Stephanie Everett: 

I’ve often heard adult learners are active learners. And so what do we do with that and how could that maybe change our approach? 

Danielle Hall: 

Yeah, no, that’s also a good point. So because we like to learn from our own experiences, bringing the opportunity to have experiences in the learning environment will actually make the information more impactful for the learner. So research out there suggests, I’m a data nerd, so research suggests that we remember about 50% of what we see and hear. We learn about, or we remember about 70% of what we say, but we actually remember 90% of what we do. And so that’s really what supports this concept of learning by doing. And so when you’re in a learning environment and you are the facilitator or the teacher or the lecturer, however you want to call yourself, having your learners have the opportunity to do something as it relates to the subject matter, they’re going to walk away with so much more than rather just sitting there and listen to somebody talk about it. 

And the thing is from the perspective of continuing legal education, we don’t have to make it complex. And I always say all the time as lawyers, we like to make things complex. We don’t have to. We don’t have to completely ditch the traditional CLE model, but even just mixing in simple activities like think, pair and share, for instance, where you give two people, tell them, turn to the person next to you, have a conversation about this and then come back to the group together. Even something as simple as that will make a more impactful learning experience for that particular attendee. 

Stephanie Everett: 

I love that. And I like doing that when I … I mean, it also makes it more fun for me. Nobody wants to sit and listen to me talk for an hour. And I feel like there’s real opportunity here in how we think about CLEs and organize them. And I’m going to say this because there’s a lot of people out here listening. Maybe you have a hand in organizing a local CLE for your local bar or some organization. And it occurred to me when you were talking too, even the time that we give, like we’re so set in that this presentation has to be an hour. Every presentation has to be an hour. And I went to a conference recently and they had 15 minute sessions, 30 minute sessions, and they did have hour sessions. They even had two hour sessions that were very interactive and more hands-on. 

But I tell you what, when I saw that on the program, I thought 15 minutes, but I went or 20 minutes, I went to those sessions, those speakers had to nail it, right? They knew they had to be tight, but they delivered on the promise. They got in there and there was no whatever. They cut down to the … And it was so great. And I remember walking away for those sessions and I was like, “That was really awesome. I got this bite-sized piece of information, exactly what I needed, and then I could go on to another session and it occurs to me we’re so used to hours, like you need CLE hours that I think we let this old rule dictate how we set up our structure, our programs, and we’re really not doing ourselves any favors there because we’re making it long and boring unnecessarily.” 

Danielle Hall: 

Right. No, that’s a good point. Having those opportunities for what we would call microlearning, short burst, it’s going to be very straight to the point. It’s going to give me the problem that it’s solving. It’s going to give me my skillsets because you don’t have all this lead up time. You’re going to get to the actual meat of what it is that people want. And looking at learning a little bit differently than from the way of, “Oh, this is how we’ve always done it, so this is how we’re going to do it this time.” I will encourage everybody out there as well. If you are part of a group that is planning a program, you’re on a committee, have conversations with your regulators within your state. I’ve had tons of conversations with people in many different state that work on the regulatory level and ask those questions on, we have this idea, how can we do this to ensure that everybody gets credit? 

Because I guarantee you they will love to entertain that conversation with you so they can see something that’s a little bit different and more impactful for the learning environment. 

Stephanie Everett: 

I mean, yeah, I mean, I think back to even law school, some of my most impactful classes were those experiential ones, like the trial skills where we had to get up and on our feet and actually practice doing across was way more beneficial than just talking about how do you do a cross. And yet when we go to CLEs, now that we’re out in the real world and we need these skills, sometimes if I were to go to a CLE, it’s like, let me listen to this guy talk for an hour about cross-examinations, which is not necessarily helpful. 

Danielle Hall: 

Yeah, not helpful at all at all. For those that are out there that are listening that are speakers, I encourage you to step outside of the box and to try something new. Might it fail? Yes, it might fail. Might you have some fear about, well, are they really going to do it? Are they going to grumble because we’re all like, “Well, we’re lawyers. We don’t want to participate in things.” I just think getting people in a new environment, a new way, I think you are going to be surprised by your outcome once people start participating and going along with you. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. And I would say use this with your team. So I used to encourage people, I know a lot of law firms will do lunch and learns and we’re going to get together and the firm will buy lunch and we’re going to learn this concept. And maybe you’ve even assigned someone, one of your associates to do the research and then to come and present on this new law or this new topic. These concepts apply too. One of the things, I mean, I ran a litigation boutique. So one of the things we used to do in our meetings is I would run evidence drills. I would give somebody on the team a piece of evidence and be like, “Okay, you’re going to pretend here’s your witness. How are you going to get this evidence in? Do you remember all the hearsay objections and have you laid a foundation?” And we would actually run little drills in the office to get evidence in because by the way, guess what? 

Those skills matter in depositions. They matter outside of trials. They matter when you’re go doing discovery because you want your people on their feet getting at bets and practices. And I think sometimes we make it like that feels like a really big lift and this would just be like a 10-minute little exercise we would run in our monthly meetings and it was fun. People, I mean, I don’t know, maybe they didn’t think it was fun, but I thought it was fun. 

Danielle Hall: 

Well, I would think it was fun. So think about- But here we are both talking about adult learning. 

Stephanie Everett: 

That’s true. But you can take this concept and apply it. Maybe you want to get better client intakes. So how can you practice active listening? How could you run through a scenario where you role play a new client calling in and teaching your team? Are they listening for the right information? Or how do we handle an angry client or how do we handle a worried client? We could sit here and name a thousand scenarios right now. So instead of having your team meetings also be boring, maybe you just weave this in to everyday work. So it doesn’t have to be a whole session on how do we deal with this kind of client. It’s like every meeting we’re going to do a role play or we’re going to practice something. The more you can get them up doing it and give them and then have people give some feedback or even just them watching can be great. 

I think, what do you think? You’re the expert here. 

Danielle Hall: 

I think so too. It’s one thing to just sit around and talk about it, right? Have a meeting about it. Oh, here are our problems and what are we going to do about it versus actively getting up and trying to solve a problem and getting practiced with it. I think that will go a long way and will ultimately lead to more success in whatever it is that you’re trying to improve upon through that process. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. So there’s so much teaching that happens on our teams with our clients, obviously in formal settings of CLEs like you talked about. I feel like we’ve just tipped just the tip of the iceberg on all these concepts. Any other kind of big takeaways you want to make sure people, if you don’t think about anything else, what else should they be thinking about? 

Danielle Hall: 

I think the biggest thing, the biggest takeaway from adult learning perspective with any of those interactions that you’re having where you’re the teacher and you have a learner, the most important thing to remember is make sure that you are addressing the why. That goes a long way and then giving them something practical in the end. So if that’s back to the CLE, giving them a practical skill to the problem that you’re trying to present in your CLE with the client, it’s ensuring that you’re addressing the why and how something is going to impact them and then work through what it is, then that’s the solution to the issue with the client. If it’s sitting there and doing something with your team where you’re in a learning environment, ensuring that you’re also giving them a why. I mean, from a change management perspective, good grief, that could be a whole nother talk about how adult learning concepts are so applicable to change management and ensuring that people understand what it is that you’re asking them to do and the why behind it. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah, absolutely. Well, before we wrap up, you know what? We should give a little plug because you and I have, we have a pretty big event coming up. We actually met because we’re on the ABA Tech Show board together, which is the board that plans the event. So ABA Tech Show is coming up, it’s right around the corner, March 25th through March 28th this year in Chicago once again. And oh, fun fact, for even more reason you should come, not only will you get all your CLEs and as Dan Yell going to be working with all of our speakers to try to make sure that they’re incorporating some of these adult learning concepts. But Rumor has it that we are sharing a space with the Comic-Con folks this year in Chicago. So there’ll be a lot. I think it’s going to make for an interesting little flavor in the hallways what’s happening. 

Danielle Hall: 

Absolutely it will. I’m hopeful that we’ll see a lot of people there. And if you are there, come by, say hi to us. If you want to talk adult learning, I’m always down to talk adult learning. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. We will both be there as will lots of people from the team. I’m really excited. You and I have gotten to work with the committee to really come up with the speakers for this year. I know we’re both speaking, but I think we have a great lineup, some really cool topics, some hands-on. I know I’m doing a hands-on workshop on getting started with AI. But I know people, it is tech show, but we’re not just covering AI. There’s going to be a lot of core topics covered too, like Word and Excel and PowerPoint. So there really is. This is a great event, not just for the lawyers in your office, but even for the other members of your team to come and really get some hands-on skills and learning. And also for you to hear sort of the future of what’s happening in technology right now, or our best guests, because who knows, it’s changing fast. 

For sure, there’ll be some AI topics, but it’s not all going to be AI. 

Danielle Hall: 

Yeah, I think we’ve got a great lineup this year. And for those of you that are wanting some practical skillsets, I definitely think there are some opportunity for that. Those of you that want to learn about, like Stephanie said, the future of where we’re headed, and I think there’s opportunities in that regard as well. So a little something for everybody. And I think it’s ultimately going to be a good event that all of you should be at. 

Stephanie Everett: 

All right. Well, we look forward to seeing everyone there. And thanks, Danielle, for joining me today. I think this is super valuable information, so I really appreciate it. Well, thanks for having me on.