Stop Doing Everything Yourself! Unlock Your Law Firm’s True Potential with Leticia DeSuze

Stephanie Everett: 

Hi, I’m Stephanie. 

Zack Glaser: 

And I’m Zack. And this is episode 560 of the Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today I’m talking with lab coach Leticia DeSuze about some of the hidden struggles that even successful law firms have. 

Stephanie Everett: 

So Zack, you talk about hidden struggles, and you were just sharing with me that your track team is struggling in a new way. So what does that look like? 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah, yeah. Kind of positive, intentional struggles. While we’re recording this, some of the guys from my track team are competing in the region decathlon. And the decathlon is, as you can imagine, 10 events, 10 very different events. It’s kind of a sampling of the horizontal jumping, the vertical jumping. It’s got pole vault in it. Kids that do pole vault have to be able to throw discus and shot put and hurdles and all that. And generally you get a kid that’s really good at one or two of the events. And so eight of the events are well outside of their comfort zone. And I just, while I’m watching the decathlon, it is inspiring. I watch them with awe because here are 14 to 18-year-old kids and they’re just willingly stepping out of their comfort zone to test themselves. And in many of the events they are going to lose because they’re throwing against somebody who’s best event is throwing. Well, okay, I’m going to beat you in the long jump though. But it gets me thinking about what are those things that we know are outside of our comfort zone that just stretch us? 

Stephanie Everett: 

And as adults, how often do we just play it safe? How are we challenging ourselves personally and professionally? I think it’s a good 

Zack Glaser: 

Question. That’s not to say like, Hey, you’re a family lawyer. Go tee up a bunch of immigration stuff right now. But is there a piece of software? Can you get a little more familiar with artificial intelligence? Can you say, okay, I’m not super comfortable with it yet. What can you be a novice at for a minute? The other thing these kids are novices at, I’d say at least eight of the events every time. And in two years, they’re going to be really good at it, but it takes the two years. 

Stephanie Everett: 

And don’t be afraid, even if it’s something, maybe you’re good to approach it with that novice mindset. Maybe you’re coming in and asking new questions or asking, why do we do it this way? Why do you throw it in this manner might uncover, and sometimes as the seasoned pro I know, being asked a question kind of makes you stop and think, wait, yeah, why do we do it that way? So even if you’re doing something you’re just used to doing, stopping and asking some questions and challenging those assumptions. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah, that’s a good point. The kids, we will have three kids out there or four kids out there, and they’ll all have different things that they’re good at and they all teach each other, but them having to, as a 15-year-old, 16-year-old, teach these other kids how to do something makes them better at it. I wonder what people out there in podcast land do to stretch their brains to get themselves out of their comfort zones. And we as lawyers a lot of times are very good at things, or we’re used to being a students, we’re used to being successful. And it’s really, really tough to go and almost intentionally do something that you’re going to be unsuccessful at the beginning. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah, I love it. I love the challenge. I’m going to think on it. I’m going to come back. I’ll report back on what I do. I don’t know what it is yet, but I’m ready. But now let’s check out your conversation with Leticia. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Hi, I am Leticia and I am one of the business coaches here at Lawyerist. I’m in the trenches every day behind the scenes with lawyers who are growing their firms, and I’m happy to be here. 

Zack Glaser: 

Leticia, thanks for being with us today. Like you said, you’re one of our business coaches here at Lawyers Lab, and you’re in the trenches with lawyers every day figuring out what it is that’s working, what’s not working, what may seem like it’s working and isn’t working. And you and I have been talking about leadership strategy and how a lot of firms don’t necessarily have, we’ve got marketing strategies, we’ve got financial strategies, we’ve got business strategies, and sometimes when those things take off, it can show us that we probably need to have a leadership strategy too, somewhere in our firm. What are you seeing as it relates to lawyers having to be the sole leader, the bottleneck sometimes in their firms? 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Well, that is exactly what I’m seeing. I’m seeing a lot of lawyers quietly unraveling behind the scenes because they are the bottleneck because they haven’t built leadership into their firm, into their team, and also because they themselves are not always equipped as leaders. They haven’t gone from lawyering to leading effectively once you start to grow teams. And so more money, success, I think it just amplifies the gaps, and I’m seeing a lot of that. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah, I wasn’t being a lawyer myself, having gone through law school, having run my firm. The only place that I was taught to lead, thankfully, was my father who was running the firm with me. How are lawyers expected to learn how to do that? 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Well, it’s just like if you own a law firm, how are you expected to learn to run it as a business? You have to learn a whole different skillset. So practicing law is one skillset. Business skills are one skill, skillset, leadership skills are an entirely different skillset, but you need all of them to run a firm. That’s how you’re expected. You got to get in there and learn. You got to trial and error. Invest in yourself to develop yourself as a leader, a whole different animal when you’re growing beyond, just when it’s just you doing all the things. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah. So I guess, what are you kind of seeing with some of our lobsters or some of our potential lobsters in their boots on the ground sort of problems with this? How are you seeing this manifest? If I’m an attorney and I’m saying, okay, I know I’m struggling, but to me in this conversation, there’s one thing is can I personally lead? And then another thing is, am I developing kind of a second tier of leadership? How do I figure out where my problem is? Where can I attack? 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Well, the way that I’m seeing it right now is when everything still runs through the leader, when decisions are still that somebody else should be able to handle that, those decisions are still running through the leader, that the leader is constantly interrupted because the staff needs to figure out or how to do something. So one of the first things is being able to delegate down to the lowest possible level. What’s on your $400 plate. That should be on somebody’s $25 an hour plate and stay there With APIs that they are held accountable to. That’s probably one of the easiest ways, but I think sometimes it’s also a shift in the mindset of, I want it done right. I’d rather just do it myself. It’s faster to do it myself. And so people resort to that because they’re already times strapped. And what does that say to the team? She’s going to check it anyway. She’s got it anyway, so I can just kick back and let her do it. I see that over and over. So the payroll becomes almost parasitic because you’re still doing all the things. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah, because the one that looks at it before, I mean now there’s an element. There are things that we do as lawyers that we have to look at before it goes out the door. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Oh, sure. 

Zack Glaser: 

But there are other things. So I’ve got kind of two directions here. One is if I’m a lawyer trying to figure out how to delegate these things, that’s not necessarily in my natural inclination. 

It’s not in my natural inclination to give people things to, I think in two ways. One is it feels like asking for help. Well, A, I pay these people, but B, if you want something done, do it yourself. I think a lot of lawyers have that feeling. So talk to me about these KPIs. That seems to be, or at least that’s the way that I’ve kind of gotten my head wrapped around delegating. Talk to me about some of these KPIs that we might be able to use in order to figure out, are people doing these things well? Am I delegating Well, 

Leticia DeSuze: 

For every role in a law firm, we need to have a very clear job description with roles and responsibilities outlined so people know, here’s what you’re being held responsible for, but then how do we know that you’re successful in this? How is this actually measured? So KPIs, key performance indicators are simply saying, here’s the three to five things that we need to look at to make sure that you are doing the thing that you’re being paid to do. And a lot of people have the job descriptions, and they may go so far as to have the KPIs, but not having meetings with people and not using the KPIs to make sure that everybody is holding their weight in the firm. 

Zack Glaser: 

I don’t have the time to do all this stuff. I have to delegate this off anyway. I don’t have the time to have meetings with people. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

So here’s the other thing. You are where time comes from. You own the firm, it’s going to be counterintuitive, but if you don’t have time to meet with your team, then you’re either going to have to hire somebody to be in that and that you’re going to have to buy back your time through hiring. But The things can’t go undone because at some point, they start to show themselves, and I’m seeing them show themselves in stress, in headaches, in sleepless nights, in joint aches, and they start to show themselves because the law firm owner is carrying so many of the things, and then they don’t have people who are capable of self-leadership and autonomy. 

Zack Glaser: 

I think that’s one of the things I want to hang on for a second, because what we’re trying to solve is this idea that lawyers are always going to burn out, that that’s part of the game is that law is a burnout. We’re just chasing, we’re trying to make enough money before we functionally break. But that’s what this is solving. You can have a successful firm, but you can be massively personally unsuccessful because you’re just breaking yourself. And so hiring people, hiring people to do the job is helpful. But where I also get hung up is this second tier of hiring. We were talking about this leadership strategy is I can teach myself how to lead potentially, but then we also have somebody like an office manager. How do I guess, empower them to help me because now I’ve taken a step away. I’m not even worried about the KPIs of my intake specialists. I’m worried about the KPIs of my person who’s worried about the KPIs of my intake specialists. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

So ideally, you want to get to a place where you’re hiring leaders across the board. So not leadership is just like the managers, but leaderships, the leaders are in intake. Leaders are in all parts of the firm. Because when I say leadership, I mean self-leadership and autonomy. Critical thinkers like hiring people that own their responsibilities and that are accountable, accountable to themselves. This is how I operate. I take initiative, I get things done. And when you start to hire people like that, it’s not based on title or level. It’s based on we hire people, these are the KPIs. We hire people who have the ability to critically think, have the ability to problem solve, have the ability to figure things out, people who take initiative. So that becomes the way that we hire, not just, this is just the second level of leaders. 

We have to start thinking about the caliber of people that we are hiring. The other part of that is going from leader to coach in such a way before you go and solve the problem, why don’t you ask Zack, why do you think this is happening? What do you think is possible? You want to call people hiring to ownership and critical thinking. So you can develop a team of leaders and not just have people hanging on your every word, or you have to jump in and do all the things. And you know what? That takes time. And because so many people are times strapped, guess what? They just stick with this parasitic model that’s just wearing them out. 

Zack Glaser: 

Right, right. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Yeah. 

Zack Glaser: 

Well, with that makes me think of, and again, I’m a lawyer at heart and I am stressed about people doing things wrong at heart. So when I pass these things off and I give people autonomy, how am I making sure that I’m balancing autonomy with my duty to make sure they’re doing things correctly? 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Let’s just say if you’ve got a team of, let’s just say seven, 

If you’re an attorney and you have an office manager or you have someone there who can own the other functions of the firm, just even from a KPI standpoint, even if they’re not the person who’s doing it, then your meetings are with this person. Primarily, they are meeting with the rest of the team to ensure that those KPIs and that those other things are being done. So of course, it’s going to be different based on how people’s firms are set up, but we need to put leadership structures in place, not necessarily from a hierarchical standpoint. Do you see how I said that? Not necessarily from that standpoint, but just so that everybody owns what it is that they’re doing. So we can triage. If something is happening in marketing, somebody owns that function, even if they’re not solely responsible. If something is happening in intake, somebody owns what our conversion rate is supposed to be, somebody owns that. And because there’s just this hodgepodge, all these, and nobody owns anything and nobody’s accountable, there’s not a lot of clear KPIs. It’s just the shit show. 

Zack Glaser: 

I think every time I talk with you, my brain always is like, okay, so what I really need to do is I need to make my freaking operations manual. It seems to me here, and this is just, again, because I’m a processes person, you got to get your processes down. If you’ve got your processes down, if you’ve got how you do something, now you can hire somebody to do that way, and then you can hold them accountable for that. So yeah, it seems like the KPIs, I am thinking like, well, what would the KPIs be? What would the kpi, and obviously the answer is it’s different for everybody, but the KPIs would be driven from those processes. Are you getting the processes done correctly? 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Correct. And then once you have the processes outlined, I think it’s also very important that you hire implementers and doers. 

You have to have people who are strong implementers and doers. I see so many things where people are like, oh, well, how do I do this? And I’m saying, initiative says, look it up, try and figure it out. Come to me as the last option. Just take some initiative. But if I know that I can always count on you to chime in, guess what? I can just kick back. You’re going to spoonfeed me whatever it is that I need. Do you actually do a disservice to people when you don’t allow them to figure things out and develop? 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah. Well, I mean, provided that’s their style and they want to do that. So how do I hire that? How do I find that? I think that’s one of the things is a lot of times when we’re trying to hire people, I don’t know, lawyers aren’t good at hiring. I was never good at hiring. I was never good at finding the right person, asking the right questions, trying to figure out how they work, how are they going to fit into my company? So how do you suggest people go about do that? 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Well, this is just when we talk about having people who are in the right fit and people that are in the right role. You as the firm owner, you need to be clear on what the needs to have your needs to have are and what nice to haves are both from a cultural fit and both from a competency standpoint, and then allow people to demonstrate for you how they’ve done that. I feel like sometimes people are either hiring from a place of desperation, and so they hire very, very quickly. 

Zack Glaser: 

Sometimes. Every now and then I’ve seen a lawyer do that. Yeah. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

And because having somebody is better than nobody, they end up being held hostage by poor hires. But I’m saying, take the time to get clear on here’s what we need. Here’s the skills gap here. These are the things that we need. And then put together the position based on what you actually need in the role. And I’m a fan of just, I don’t like, what do you call it, those pet interviews. So tell me about yourself. Tell me this. I just real life and real life discussions. So you can see in real time how people think about things based on what it is that you’re asking them to do. 

Zack Glaser: 

If I’m starting at zero, I’m a solo, I might have somebody working in my office with me and I’ve got them, we’ve got a pretty good rhythm, but obviously I need more people. How do I go from, I don’t know what the hell is going on. I’m just overwhelmed. I’m blanket overwhelmed to, okay, I’ve got a good idea of who I should hire. Do I need to put down all my processes? Do I need to make a list of what all things I’m missing, what skills these people need? How do I go about from a blank sheet to three options of decent people? 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Well, I can remember talking to actually one of the lawyers who is a part of Lawyerist, and we went through this, who do I need to hire? And I’m saying, okay, you as the attorney, what’s on your plate that could be delegated down? And so she came up with her tasks. She had a very strong paralegal, she had a legal assistant. I said, who has things that are on their plate that could be delegated down? By down, I mean, someone else could do this. This is not the highest and best use of their time. And so when they came up with those things, they’re like, okay, the things that could be delegated down to the lowest possible level, we’ve popped those things into chat GPT to say what might this position be and what can we call it? We ended up with, in that sense, a legal operations coordinator, which was a hodgepodge of these things that would free them up to do, to operate in the highest and best use of their skillset. So there’s more than one way to think about it. If you’re a solo and you have one person helping you, if your revenue were to double what would break? What’s breaking now? 

Where are you feeling the pain right now? And is everything off of your plate that could go to this person’s plate? And if you’re saying, you know what, she’s got everything she can handle, but I still have too much on my plate. Well, what are the nature of the tasks that are on your plate? Are they operational? Are they client service? Where can you delegate down? And so instead of thinking, I need a receptionist, or I need a paralegal, let’s look at the tasks. Let’s group the tasks. Are they administrative? Are they marketing? Are they tied to intake? And then we can say, okay, this is who we need. Do we need this person on a full-time basis? Do we need a hybrid? And so it’s just brainstorming a little bit to see what’s going to give you the greatest bandwidth. 

Zack Glaser: 

Sounds like bringing in the rest of your team also. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

So it depends on how many there are in your team. So in the first lawyer, I think there might be five of them. So it does make sense. Let’s think about this as a team. But if you’re a solo or if it’s just you and another person, then you have less people to think through this. So just think through the tasks. You just think through, what are you doing? I remember talking to an attorney and he said, I think my clients love the fact that when they call my firm, I answer. And I said, how much money are you losing as the receptionist? Just curious. They may love it, but you’re bleeding money because your rate is $400 an hour and you could be doing something different. 

Zack Glaser: 

Well, and they may love for you to come pick them up from their house to bring them to the office. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Exactly. So I was saying, I say, you think this is client service. You’re doing your clients a disservice because there are cases you could be working on. There’s other things that you could be doing. And having a really incredible person who makes everybody call the firm feel like they’re getting a warm hug. They’re criminals. That was a criminal defense lawyer, they need that. So I’m just like, let’s think about this strategically. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah. Well, so one thing I could harp on forever is I think my clients love that when they call in, they get me even. He didn’t even necessarily, or that person didn’t necessarily even get feedback. They hadn’t figured out that my clients do love. And they’ve all said that they will leave if no, I think my clients. So that could be another podcast of getting feedback from your clients in doing this exercise of trickling down the tasks that can be Delegated. 

One of the things I think a lot of attorneys run into, or at least, and I’m just basically saying a lot of attorneys are me, one of the things that I ran into and run into is trying to figure out whether or not my other people, my assistants, my associates, all that are working at, and I don’t want to say maximum capacity, because honestly, you don’t really want to work people at maximum and what is maximum capacity, but are working at an optimal capacity. How do I figure out if they’ve got the right amount on their plate as we kind of trickle these things down? 

Leticia DeSuze: 

That’s a really good question. It could be a team thing. It can be an owner thing to determine, I ask this question a lot. Is your team at capacity while they say that they’re at capacity, okay, well, what do you consider capacity for this role? The roles are tied to the firm, not to the people. Because if the people are gone, we can’t have, right? And so I’m just saying if the people are saying, you’re saying this is capacity, there is 75% of what you’re saying either is capacity, either there is a disconnect about what capacity actually is in your practice, and there might be things that you aren’t considering or the people need help. One of the things, so sometimes determining it depends on the practice area. For some attorneys or paralegals, it’s caseload, but it’s billables. So I think it depends on the practice area. But that is a very important thing to determine what capacity looks like because you definitely don’t want people completely at capacity. 

Zack Glaser: 

But what you’re saying is instead of saying, is this person able to handle x? Is this role, should this role be getting 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Correct, 

Zack Glaser: 

Done? 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Correct. If the roles are tied to the people, then you’re building your firm based on variables, not things that, because people leave, people change people’s capacity change based on life, lifeing, right? If this is what’s required of the role, if for whatever reason, this person is no longer in the role and we’re hiring, again, this is what’s required for this position to contribute what we needed to contribute in the firm. And a lot of times that’s not even something that’s determined. 

Zack Glaser: 

That also dovetails in the trying to find a new person as well, is we’ve scoped the role. If I’m trying to find it, then we’re going to scope the role. We’re going to figure out how much that role is supposed to do and hire for that. And so figuring that out for your existing roles is normal. Not only normal, but advisable. It 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Is advisable. Figuring this out across the board is period. I’m going to tell you we’re sometimes people are reluctant to do it because sometimes people are afraid of the pushback from the team, afraid of if we set these standards, have these boundaries that my team is going to be more overwhelmed. Or whenever you change anything, whenever you change anything in a firm or in a business, people either rise to it or ultimately they self-select out. And either of those is okay, if this is something that you’ve determined needs to happen for the firm to run successfully, which is why I say the roles have to be tied to the firm and not the people. It’s not that the people are not important, but they can’t be the driver of these decisions. 

Zack Glaser: 

Well, and if you’re not giving people KPIs, if you’re not giving people elements of what their job is, if you’re not giving them good job descriptions, if you’re not saying, this is what is expected of this job, then for me, that increases the stress of that job. If I don’t know what it is, because then it can be variable, and B, it’s whatever I kind of think it is, and I’m going to make it the worst thing for me. I’m going to make it difficult in my brain and that’s going to hang over me. Whereas there’s a kind of kindness to giving clarity to clarity. Yeah. I always think of good fences make good neighbors. We have to hold people accountable for things. But when we do that, when there’s clarity there, we have a better relationship. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

When people know what’s expected and you’ve communicated what’s expected, they know what’s expected. It definitely is a better relationship because there’s no guessing outside of KPIs, outside of clarity. I don’t think people actually feel secure in their roles within Affirm because nothing feels solid or certain. And so people are just kind of going along to get along. But I think it’s a great thing when you can tell people in this role, this is what success looks like. So I know on my own if I’m successful or not, based on what it is that I’m doing, if the goalpost is moving or if it’s not clearly defined, it’s just a constant guessing game. And it’s subjective. 

Zack Glaser: 

When we started this conversation and we were talking about leadership strategy, when I think of leadership, I think of George Washington crossing the Delaware. I think of somebody standing on the front of the ship and yelling, charge or leading by example of working really hard and answering emails at 3:00 AM. But A, that’s not good leadership to answer emails at 3:00 AM But really, and I think if somebody had come into this conversation halfway through, they wouldn’t recognize that we were talking about leadership. But it seems like leadership is providing structure, 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Providing structure, and people who own the outcomes tied to the structure that you provided. Well, 

Zack Glaser: 

So that’s not as difficult, right? 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Not title 

Zack Glaser: 

You. Right? Honestly, that’s not as difficult as I think of it as the captain of the team. I don’t have to be the captain of the team. I have to be the leader. I 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Heard with my own ears. I heard an intake person say, our number of leads that we need every month is this. We didn’t get that. We got this. And so here’s the gap between where we should be and where we are. That person owned their role around intake. They knew the numbers. They knew the KPI. And so that intake role, I don’t know how much that is, But They were a leader, very much a leader in their own right, an intake leader, not the leader of intake, but an intake leader. 

Zack Glaser: 

And so by providing this clarity, by providing this structure, you don’t have to be standing at the front of the boat. You’re facilitating an environment where people can lead and be successful themselves. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Correct. And so when you give that clarity and you give that structure, then you also give trust and you trust that you’re hiring people who will own it and who will carry it out. And so then you don’t have to micromanage. It’s not that you don’t have the meetings in place so that you’re going over those things, but then you can trust that you’ve hired people who can carry out the vision of the firm. And so that you want to hire strong leaders for every position. I don’t care if they’re opening the doors for people coming in, if you have people coming in, it’s just like we want leaders and people who take ownership, people who know if they’re off of their KPIs and say, huh, I’m off here. Here’s either where I need help or support or This feels a little bit off. You need that from people and people because those people lead alongside you. 

Zack Glaser: 

So I’m going to go a little weird here to wrap it up. Not weird, but a little different. What is, because we’ve already talked about steps you can take to find these people. We’ve already talked about steps you can take to become this. We’ve already talked about that. What is one way that you like that you really appreciate for people to reward that sort of initiative leadership within the firm? 

Leticia DeSuze: 

I like it when a leader has taken the time, if their team is small enough, and it’s not like we’re talking about 200 people to the way people like to be rewarded. 

Some people like a pat on the back, some people like a shout out. Some people are like, no, I want a day off. No, I want money. Everybody is innately motivated by different things. And so if you create a way so that what innately motivates this person, you’re going to see more of whatever they get rewarded for. So instead of just having this blanket way, that is one way, that’s just like Bonusly allows people, if you want to save your money and get money, you can do that. If you like shopping, then you can use your things for shopping. So finding a way so that everybody’s quote, reward, love language is given to them. Some people are money motivated. Show me the money. You don’t have to say my name. If I can put it in the bank, we don’t even have to know it was me. Right. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah, I like that. I like that. And I know Lawyerist, when I was first getting hired, that’s kind of one of the questions they would ask. And so I wonder if people could put that in there. We just talked about hiring somebody in order to hiring leaders. I wonder if you could put that in your kind of hiring intake. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

My daughter, she, she’s 29 now, but they did a commercial for her school when she was about six years old. And at the end of the commercial, she said, Hey, are we getting paid for this commercial? And they kept it in because people thought it was so funny. She was so serious. And she is innately motivated by money, by how she can make money doing something. And so we all have innate motivators, and when those can be tied to work and what we do at work, you just get more of what people just are naturally drawn to do. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah. Love it. Love it. Well, my innate motivator is nachos. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Yeah. Let’s see mine 

Zack Glaser: 

In case anybody’s 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Keeping score, it could be money depending on what it is, but it’s probably more time. I love time. I love autonomy over time. So anytime I can have time to do whatever it is that I want to do with it, it’s probably time. And then experiences. 

Zack Glaser: 

Well, I’d love to know what our listeners are motivated by. I would love to know that in the comments, 

Leticia DeSuze: 

What they find out, what their teams are motivated 

Zack Glaser: 

By. Yeah. What’s motivated by, is it the pizza party? Do they care about the pizza party? Do they care about more days off? Do they just want bonuses? Do, do they want to shout out on your social media? 

Leticia DeSuze: 

If you really ask people and listen to the feedback, people will help you lead them. If you really listen to people, people will tell you what’s important to ’em. But if you are just like, this is how it’s going to be, then you’re going to miss those cues and not necessarily have one of those best place to work cultures. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah. Yeah. Won’t get to put that on the door anymore. Well, Leticia, this has been really good. I thought we were going a different direction with the leadership, because at the beginning, like I said, I think Washington crossing the Delaware, but really I love this leadership is creating that structure, leadership 

Leticia DeSuze: 

At every level, 

Zack Glaser: 

Leadership 

Leticia DeSuze: 

At every level, not just like your firm administrator or your operations manager. Leader leaders are in your intake team leaders at every position. 

Zack Glaser: 

And then we just need to make sure we’re being intentional about facilitating that. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Correct. 

Zack Glaser: 

Love it. Well, Leticia, once again, thanks for being with me. I always appreciate chatting with you about all this. 

Leticia DeSuze: 

Thank you. I appreciate being here.