From Survival to Strategy: Scaling Your Law Firm Finances, with Bernadette Harris

Zack Glaser: 

Hi, I’m Zack. 

Chad Fox: 

And I’m Chad. And this is episode 5 83 of the Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today, Zack talks to Bernadette about advanced firm finances, and specifically these are areas of finance that you would really think through in the later stages of your business growth for your firm. 

Zack Glaser: 

So Chad, we break in lab, we break law firm growth, healthy growth into four stages. The first stage is just get your crap together, get your feet under you, and then the last stages is like, how do I create a legacy? How do I build something to be able to sell, to be able to exit one day? And so a lot of times I think we focus on that, those first two stages of law firm finances a lot, and the KPIs that go along with that. So Bernadette and I are talking about some of those kind of advanced KPIs and how to measure things that will hopefully let you sell your company someday. 

Chad Fox: 

Yeah, that’s the dream. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah, I mean, honestly, it’s the dream of a lot of people, but it’s not the dream of, some people just want to go work for a firmer. That’s perfectly fine. 

Chad Fox: 

Yeah, no, that’s true. And not everybody wants to sell their firm, so I guess maybe it’s not always the 

Zack Glaser: 

Dream, but if it is your dream, stick around and listen to mine and Bernadette’s episode. 

Chad Fox: 

So Zack, I wanted to know if you wanted to talk today about how you tried to kill me last week. 

Zack Glaser: 

Well, so you’re going to have to be more specific on that 

Chad Fox: 

Which time, 

Zack Glaser: 

And I don’t know if you know all of them. So for the people out in podcast land, we did Lab Con last week, or at least last week in relationship to when we’re recording this. And Lab Con is our conference for our laps where we do, it’s an unconference Chad. It’s not really nobody’s standing up there preaching at people or anything like that. It’s very much what do you want to learn about? How do you want to work on your firm? And I’m assuming that you’re talking about the morning runs. 

Chad Fox: 

The morning runs, 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah. 

Chad Fox: 

So this is my second lab con, and last year at Lab Con, I did not participate in the morning runs with you because I was not in the best of shape. And so this year I have been running a bit and I said, okay, I’m going to join Zack for the runs. And I said, well, tell me about these runs. And he said, oh, we will be around 10 or 11 minute pace. I’m like, okay, that’s right about where I’m at. 10 11 is probably more preferable, but 10, 11, okay, I can do that. And so we get out there morning one, and we’re in Atlanta and I’m in Florida, so it’s very flat here. Atlanta is not flat, 

Zack Glaser: 

Not the area that we were in. 

Chad Fox: 

I remembered very, very quickly when we hit the first hill on the trail and I was like, oh, I’m in trouble. And then I realized it was like, okay, we’re definitely running more 10 than 11 on this first run. Okay, I’m not a quitter. There’s six of us out here doing this and I’m not going to be the one to quit. So I pushed through, okay, we get through it two miles, whatever it was, almost two and a quarter miles, whatever, 

Zack Glaser: 

Something point that About 20 minutes. Yeah, 

Chad Fox: 

25 minutes. Day two was more of a nine 30 pace. 

Zack Glaser: 

I am nothing if not inconsistent, Chad. 

Chad Fox: 

And I was like, man, that was tough, but again, we’re in a group, 

Zack Glaser: 

You didn’t 

Chad Fox: 

Quit. I’m not going to quit in a group. And as I was kind of reflecting on it, I was like, man, if I had been out running by myself, which I often do, I would’ve been perfectly happy cruising around 10 and a half, 11 minute mile pace. But because of the community and the group that we were running together, everybody pushed through. 

Zack Glaser: 

That’s true. Because I mean, I wouldn’t have run the pace we were running. And that can get dangerous sometimes when people are just all playing chicken. But when you’re just encouraging each other and kind of forgetting that you’re in a demanding situation, have camaraderie and want to, don’t be the one to slow everybody down. Chad, honestly, I didn’t notice that you were not, let’s say, not wanting to run a nine 30 pace. I did notice that we were running a nine 30 pace, but I had gotten caught up in the energy of others as well, and we just started rocking along to that. But that’s community, right? 

Chad Fox: 

Yeah. 

Zack Glaser: 

That’s just having people around you having, I notice in, I mean, that’s why when we’re doing cross country, why people run together to keep you going. If you’re going to do something difficult many times, and I don’t know that everybody is exactly like this, but many times it’s great to have a community around you that’s willing to get through with you, right? 

Chad Fox: 

Yeah. I mean, I think about just what we just finished up at Lab Con, the community of attorneys working together and pushing each other and having great conversations and really just growing together that it just really, I didn’t think about it at the time, how it connected to what we just did with Lab Con or even what we do inside lab in our lab community, but we really do push each other to go further faster. 

Zack Glaser: 

So me trying to kill you was really 

Chad Fox: 

For my own good. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s what we do at Lab Con and in Lab. But really if you think about it, we just spent two and a half days heads down working on our businesses. And if you don’t have that community, that’s rough. It’s a lot of work. It takes it out of you. But if you do it alone, and again, some people probably can’t. Some people that’s probably great to go to a cabin in the woods and be like, I’m hunkering down. But if you do it together and look around and see other people’s heads down, for me at least, that is much easier to maintain my motivation, to maintain my speed. 

Chad Fox: 

My son’s an Eagles fan, and the Eagles have a great quote on the wall somewhere. I dunno if it’s in the locker room or if it’s in this complex somewhere, but it says alone, we can fly faster, but together we can fly farther. 

Zack Glaser: 

I like that. 

Chad Fox: 

Yeah, 

Zack Glaser: 

I like that. On that note, Chad, let’s listen to one of our other lab comrades. Bernadette talked to me about advanced law firm finances. 

Chad Fox: 

Let’s do it. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Hi, I am Bernadette Harris, and I’m a business strategist here at Lawyerist and also a finance coach. So today we are talking about KPIs. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah. Bernadette, thank you. Thanks for being on the show. You’ve been on the podcast many times, but I don’t think you and I have ever actually gotten to have a recorded conversation on the podcast. This is nice. This is nice. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Thanks. Reading. This is very nice. This is very nice. I was really excited when they said, you get to be with Zack today. I am like, wow. And I love Stephanie. Let’s not get that. Oh yeah. It’s always you. Oh, 

Zack Glaser: 

Well, I was telling you before the episode that this is one of the episodes that I don’t have to play dumb. I’m not a finance expert, and I’m certainly not the subject matter expert on finances for our lab stirs and our lawyers. You. So thanks for being here. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Yeah, of course. It is always a pleasure to be able to kind of demystify this topic because I know it’s usually one that a lot of people run from, but it’s so important to the success of our lobsters and their law firms. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah, that’s a good point. And I like the term demystifying because when I was running my law firm, it felt, yeah, I mystical, it felt confusing. It was jumbled. It was a thing that I didn’t have the tools to necessarily deal with. Initially, I was taught how to be a lawyer at law school, but I certainly wasn’t taught how to run a law firm or do any KPIs. But a lot of times we come on here and we talk about some of the initial things that lawyers need to think of, what amounts of money do you need to have in the bank before you get going? The fact that you need to pay yourself a lot of those initial, let’s get started. Do you want to start a law firm? Sort of questions today though, I’d like to talk about some of the more advanced law firms, the ones that are in stage for us for our purposes, stages three and four when they’re thinking about strategic stuff. I’d like to talk about that today. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Yeah. Because in stage one and two, I call these survival metrics. You’re looking at things like cashflow and profitability and how do you increase your revenue and things like that. But the stage three and four law firms are more strategic. This is more about building a law firm that’s sustainable or scalable or maybe even transferable at this stage of the business. KPIs aren’t about how hard you’re working in the business, it’s more about how well the business is working without you as an owner of the firm. 

Zack Glaser: 

That doesn’t seem like something that I can run kind of a natural report out of QuickBooks for that doesn’t feel like it’s sitting there as a line item in my profit and loss statement. 

Bernadette Harris: 

It is not. It is. So the conversation today is going to be around where do we go to get these numbers and how do we measure these things? And so thinking about when we are shifting from survival to strategic, one of the metrics that you want to look at is more around leverage. And so I know that here we are getting away from the billable hour, but we can still measure the leverage of our team, our workers, without it being an hourly thing. So think about it like this. Who’s actually doing the work? Is it the owner or is it the team? 

Zack Glaser: 

As we were starting here, I kind of wanted to back up a little bit and think if people out in podcast land are going, am I in stage three? Am I in stage four? Am I in stage two? 

Bernadette Harris: 

We probably shouldn’t put some definitions to that. 

Zack Glaser: 

Well, let’s at least put a picture of who that is. What does a stage three sort of owner or law firm look like to you? 

Bernadette Harris: 

So I’m thinking that stage three is typically the law firm that now you have staff, you have built a team, you have your systems, but now you’re starting to develop that staff. So you may be developing your staff to take on more leadership roles, maybe not partnership, but more so a leadership role in the business you are working on, being able to be more of a manager. You’re still probably doing some of the work, but hopefully you have a team that’s doing a little bit of it. Does that sound like, yeah, 

Zack Glaser: 

That makes sense to me because we put a title on stage three, as you know, it’s strengthen. It’s when you’re kind of taking all the stuff that you’ve been frantically trying to figure out and really develop some leaders and things like that. So if I’m in stage three, if that looks like me, how do those KPIs shift? Because we’re not talking about just what is your profitability? Are you paying yourself? Do you have cashflow? We’re talking about things that are, again, strengthening ourselves or firm. 

Bernadette Harris: 

And that’s where, like I said before, is figuring out who’s doing the work, how much of the work is being performed by the owner versus the team. And that’s when we look at our leverage KPIs. And so you may look at case distribution. What percentage of the cases are being handled by you as the owner versus the percentage of cases that are being handled by your team? 

Zack Glaser: 

I think for me, again, I’m telling you, I don’t have to play dumb in this one. For me, I would probably have just kind of gone by a gut feeling of like, am I doing, do I have my owner hat on more than I have of my lawyer hat? How do I track those things? How do I think about those things? It feels like I’m going to have to track my hours still, even if I’m not billing by the hour. 

Bernadette Harris: 

So no, you don’t necessarily have to track hours. You can track case, you can track case types. You can track revenue based on a case type. So it’s not saying that I work 70 hours a week and they work 60. It’s not about hours. It’s about who’s generating the income. So when you look in your practice management software, can you see who has what cases and what the case value is? Right. 

Zack Glaser: 

Okay. So that right there is one of those light bulb moments. Me, I don’t know that I would’ve ever measured it separately from my actual day-to-day output versus my team’s actual day-to-day output. In what you’re saying, it doesn’t really matter how much time people are putting into it or whatever, it’s have you started shifting the load of making the money to the rest of your team? That’s fascinating. 

Bernadette Harris: 

So those are things that, no, you might not find this in QuickBooks. This is going to probably be in your practice management software. 

Zack Glaser: 

Right. Okay. So in order to track that, I need to have been tracking other things. What are some of the things, I guess, or other KPIs that I need to be thinking about in this stage? Three? You’ve blown my mind with that one. Okay. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Yeah, but it’s a very simple one. So it’s not one that, yeah, it’s a very simple one, and it’s one that if you take a look at it, then you can start thinking about how close are you? Are you just getting into stage three? Are you headed into stage four? Because we didn’t talk about stage four, but stage four is more of when they are pretty much they’re running, they’re in the business and they are not necessarily doing a large percentage of the work. Still. There are some people in stage four firms that are in stage four where the owners are doing some of the work, but maybe only about 30% of the work in the other 70 is being handled by their team. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah. Well, let me stay in stage three for a second if you don’t mind, because let’s do it. We’re still in a place where you’ve blown my mind of shifting these ideas. And I can see where, okay, is the revenue coming from other people, but I also think we could probably measure this as I’m going through this by how good are our SOPs? Are people following our SOPs? Do we have, I guess in stage two, that’s our systemization, We Should be creating these SOPs. And then are people actually following these things or do I have to go in as an owner and just freaking fix manhandle everything again anyway? 

Bernadette Harris: 

Yeah, and those are definitely indicators of those things. But yeah, when you look at the leverage piece of it, you’re looking at what percentage of the work is being done by your team versus what percentage of the work is being done by you. And the goal when you’re in stage three or four is to shift it so that 60 to 70% of that is being handled by your team. 

Zack Glaser: 

I love that number. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Isn’t it a beautiful number? 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah, that’s fantastic having all that, because when we’re in stage one, it’s me, it’s me. I’m doing all this stuff, and I’ve got, I remember thinking when I was practicing a lot of times, like I’m responsible for everything. I just have people helping me do those things. And this is fundamentally different than that. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Oh, it’s totally different. And I think that when a business is at the stage three level, then they can focus their time on more high income producing activities, which is again, the goal when you’re getting to the stage three and four, those are the focuses. You’re not doing the things that are not high income producing 

Zack Glaser: 

Activities. Your time is theoretically way 

Bernadette Harris: 

More valuable. 

Zack Glaser: 

Very, very valuable. And I think about that idea sometimes when I was just starting out where it’s like, yeah, yeah, my time’s valuable, but this thing has to get done and I don’t have anybody else that can do it. And so I am doing these $20 an hour jobs or $60 an hour jobs, or even $150 an hour jobs when ideally I’d be doing these big, big ticket items, which is where we are in stage three. So from stage three, which is that strengthened stage, what do we start to think about? What does the firm that is in stage four starting to get into stage four look like? Who are we? 

Bernadette Harris: 

I think that number gets a little bit higher the closer you get to stage four. So we talked about that 60 to 70%, it make it a little bit higher because again, owners, you think about it when you have firms that are truly in that stage four, when they’re in stage four, the owners are truly in the C-suite, they are doing the visionary work, maybe they’re doing those types of things, and they have a team who’s actually out there providing the client 

Zack Glaser: 

Outputs. So it’s less about, are other people also doing the thing and more about, did I get everybody else to do the stuff? We be much, much closer to a hundred percent of the revenue stream, but my, let’s say 10%, let’s just say it’s 10 or 20. My 10 or 20 is actually coming from something totally separate than billable hours or even my law firm stuff. My value is coming from that strategic standpoint. 

Bernadette Harris: 

And at that stage, the owner has developed themselves into being a leader to where when they are spending time doing casework, they’re hurting the firm because they have a skillset that no one else in the firm has and is not being utilized. 

Zack Glaser: 

Okay, so how do I measure that? What are my KPIs that I’m thinking about? I imagine there’s still kind of an extension of that KPI that we were just talking about. How much am I doing to create the revenue versus the rest of my team? What are some other KPIs we’re thinking about? 

Bernadette Harris: 

So we can also look at revenue that’s generated by roles. So this is still a leverage KPI, but you can look at how much revenue are your paralegals generating, how much revenue are your associates generating? How much revenue are the partners generating? And so this is, again, another way to be able to measure. It almost gives you that percentage. So it gives you an idea of who’s generating the income. And for example, a paralegal should be generating at the stage three or stage four firm, a paralegal should be generating three to four times their salary in revenue. And I know that sounds like, whoa, but 

Zack Glaser: 

I mean, 

Bernadette Harris: 

That’d be 

Zack Glaser: 

A dream, right? Yeah. 

Bernadette Harris: 

But that’s the goal. That is the goal. Now, maybe you aren’t there yet, but that is the goal for a paralegal to generate three to four times their salary. So if you’re paying a paralegal $60,000, they should be generating at least 180,000 or helping to generate $180,000 in revenue so that they’re covering their salary, they’re helping to cover expenses as well as profit for the firm. Same with associates. Associates, probably a little higher, I would say even four to six times as much. Because again, I, and this is ideal. This is the goal, right? 

Zack Glaser: 

We’re stage four here. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Yeah, this is the goal. And so if you aren’t there yet, don’t get afraid. But these are the numbers that you’re working towards getting to this point. And again, the goal is to get the owner’s involvement lower and lower so that the associates, the team members, our generating income for the firm. 

Zack Glaser: 

And it feels like the path towards there from what you’re saying by these KPIs, because stage three KPI that you’re talking about that’s related to leverage is kind of, it’s almost simple instead of the stage four. So stage three is what am I doing versus what’s the rest of my team doing? And then in stage four, we start to say, okay, what am I doing that needs to be a small part of this pie, and then let’s dig into some real granular detail on what’s the rest of my team doing? 

Bernadette Harris: 

Yeah, because at stage four, you are looking at truly scalability. You’re looking at maybe even transferability, being able to, this is when we’re looking at succession, and we’ll talk about, because we want to talk about succession planning, but the mindset of the owner is around succession more so again than it is around survival. And so like we said before, leverage isn’t about ours. It’s not about measuring hours. It is really about whether or not your team can generate multiples of what you’re paying them. 

Zack Glaser: 

Because 

Bernadette Harris: 

If not, then yeah, we have problems. 

Zack Glaser: 

Well, this makes me think of while you’re talking about succession here, because the goal of stage four succession, we want to be able to sell this, or at the very least, even if you want to practice until you can’t walk up the steps of the courthouse, my father did that. He practiced pretty much to the day he passed. You still want to be able to leave your work to somebody. So there’s still some semblance of succession there. And so starting with 

Bernadette Harris: 

The mind, because succession looks different for every single firm. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah, yeah. Well, so talk to me about that. Because like to back into our KPIs from succession, that seems to be the connection here is how not only how disconnected can I be as an owner from the day-to-day operation, but it’s also how much value can I make this firm have on paper? If I can say these paralegals, because they’re dealing with my appropriate SOPs, the paralegals are bringing in four times or three times their salary. My associates, again, because they’re dealing with my SOPs, are bringing in three, four times their salary. Now I’m actually able to put that in front of somebody and say, this is the value of this company. Right? 

Bernadette Harris: 

Because a lot of times when you’re building a firm, the value of the firm increases significantly when the firm has the ability to operate without the owner. Because at some point, if you are looking at, let’s say your succession plan is to sell the firm, that means you’re walking away. And when you walk away, will this all crumble or will it continue to work the way that it is designed to work? And if it’s able to work, I won’t say without you, but it’s not completely dependent on you, that significantly increases the value of the firm. 

Zack Glaser: 

I like that. Okay. Well, so what are some of the goals that we have for that? Even phasing out of phase four here, getting into success planning, talking about mature companies here. These aren’t just started out law firms. So what are some of the succession planning goals that we have? 

Bernadette Harris: 

So when we’re thinking about this, you want to look at client origination. What percentage of new clients are being originated by owners versus the team? Because if client origination solely an owner driven task, again, you have a problem when that owner steps away. 

Zack Glaser: 

So not only is it is my team providing the value when we’re in stage four here, it’s is my team creating the value? And we start to measure that of is the rest of the team bringing in this stuff or am I just the rainmaker? And when I step away, rain stops, 

Bernadette Harris: 

It stops raining. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah, 

Bernadette Harris: 

We’re in the desert 

Zack Glaser: 

And I think that’s classically been a law firm. Rainmaker goes away, profit goes away, the whole thing has no 

Bernadette Harris: 

Value, and you’re literally starting over. And so 30 years of practice is gone down the tube because there were no succession plans in place and we didn’t measure these things. We didn’t have the KPIs to measure what our succession plan, what was going to be successful in that. 

Zack Glaser: 

So this brings me into a, this just made me think of what if I’m a partner in a firm and my other partner is also somebody that brings in a lot of money, I have incentive for all of us, all of us partners to become the stage four, be able to step away. Because what if this person decides they want to leave? I want us to get to the stage four. That’s again, a lot of times I go back to my father with running the law practice in a way other than just making sure that his family is good and taken care of. He used to always tell me, I’ll be dead. Doesn’t matter to me that. And so I can see that from some perspectives of, I mean, if I’m the one that leaves, I’ve left. Okay, well, you could also be a partner in that firm and you want everybody to be in this stage four. Yeah. 

Bernadette Harris: 

The thing about succession planning, succession planning is what you want to happen 

When you decide to do X, whether it’s walk away or do something else or do your second act. That’s what I like to call it. But succession planning also has to take into consideration a little contingency planning. What about the things that happen that we have no control over? What if maybe you don’t die, but maybe you’re incapacitated or maybe you get so sick that you’re not able to operate in the way that you were. And so when we are talking about stage four firms, we are talking about an organization that is not solely dependent on any one person that if one person has to walk away, or even if it’s temporarily that the train doesn’t stop, maybe it slows down, maybe there’s a little bit of a hiccup or whatever, but it doesn’t stop. And that is what that stage four is about building a firm that is not solely dependent on any one person. 

Zack Glaser: 

Okay, so we’ve got some KPIs for stage three. We’ve got some KPIs for stage four. We’ve got our goal of why we even want to go into stage three and why we want to go to stage four. If I’m sitting here in stage one or stage two, let’s say stage two, because how do I start to aim at stage three at being able to get to a place where I start to strengthen stuff? I start to really, that feels like the place where I start to phase myself out of the day to day. I’d love to be there, let’s say. 

Bernadette Harris: 

And in the stage two, that’s where we focus more on systems. And this is when you look at a stage three in a stage four firm, they’ve mastered That. Like you said, they have the SOPs and those are SOPs that everyone is following. And because everyone’s following those SOPs, they are generating multiples of three and four of the salary that they’re being paid. And so in a stage two firm, that’s the goal. You can’t skip it. You can’t skip it because there are so many instances where not having your business systematized stunts your growth. 

Zack Glaser: 

So I could see somebody right now, Bernadette out there saying, I’ve been operating for 30 years. I have to be a stage three or stage four firm, but I have no SOPs. 

Bernadette Harris: 

And it’s not about you, 

Zack Glaser: 

But I’ve got to be stage three. Right? It sounds like I don’t give a shit. You’re stage one. I don’t care how long you’ve been operating, you’re stage one. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Yeah. Yeah. It is not 

Zack Glaser: 

About how much 

Bernadette Harris: 

Time you can’t sell that because quite honestly, we could have a three-year-old business in stage three because they’ve done the things stage 

Zack Glaser: 

That was just rocking and rolling 

Bernadette Harris: 

Stage three. 

Zack Glaser: 

So personally as it’s not about, as the tech guy here. Yeah, I freaking love this because one of the first things I say to people in technology meetings where they’re saying, Hey, how do I choose this piece of tech is I say, well, what are your procedures? And nobody wants to do their procedures from the get go. Nobody wants to because they don’t feel like they have time. It sounds like 

That’s The only thing you really, if you want to get to stage three and four, that’s the only thing you really need to, I mean, yeah, you need to operate your company, but got to get these operating, 

Bernadette Harris: 

You have to do that. You have to have the systems in place. Because I always, when I’m coaching clients, when we talk about systems and when I get pushback about getting those systems done, I always ask, if you document this process and it allows you to delegate this task to someone else, how much time will that save you? And you just do some basic math. So if it saves you two hours a day, who cares? If it takes you eight hours, how many days are you planning to work? 

Zack Glaser: 

If it saves me two hours a day every day, then I can spend 10 hours and I pick it up in a week. Yeah. But I mean, that’s tough. It is tough. I don’t want to sit here and be like, it’s not difficult to put your SOPs together. It’s not difficult to run your firm. It absolutely is. But if you want to get into that stage three, and certainly if you want to get into stage four and then be able to sell a valuable practice, you got to do it. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Yeah. And I hope that I am not simplifying it to the point where I make it seem like it’s easy to do. No, it’s not easy to do. But it’s just one of those things that if you do it, see, I always think about if I do this, what is going to be the long-term benefit of said this, whatever this is, if it is exercise, if it is eating right, if it is documenting my procedures, what’s the long-term benefit of doing that? And so when you’re in stage one, stage two, and you’re listening to this conversation and you’re like, man, that sounds dreamy what they’re talking about, it’s possible. You just have to do the work to get here. 

Zack Glaser: 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Bernadette, we’re going to name this episode, do This One simple trick to Sell Your With Simple with an asterisk next to it. And it’s like it’s not actually that simple. You have to work really hard. The one simple trick to get from stage one to selling your firm for umpteen times its value, but I think this is a lot of valuable information. Obviously there’s more in this. Yeah, we 

Bernadette Harris: 

Can do a part two to this because there’s more to think about, but I think this is enough to be able to look at for the firms that are in this stage three, stage four, to be able to say, Hey, these are some of the that I need to start thinking about. 

Zack Glaser: 

Well, and I wouldn’t be a part of Lawyerist lab if I didn’t do a quick little plug that even if you’re in stage three, you’re in stage four, we got Bernadette, we got people here that can help you figure these things out because it’s always good to have a strategist help you with these things. So go to the website, give us a call, send us an email, drop a comment in the podcast, something like that. And we’d love to hear from you. Bernadette, thank you for being with me. I really enjoyed doing the podcast with you this time. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Same. We definitely have to do a part two. 

Zack Glaser: 

Alright, Bernadette, thank you again.