AI for Law Firm Growth: Building Smarter Systems and Better Business Decisions, with Conrad Saam

Bernadette Harris: 

Hi, I’m Bernadette. 

Stephanie Everett: 

And I’m Stephanie and this is episode 617 of The Lawyerist Podcast, part of the Legal Talk Network. Today I’m talking with Conrad Saam on how his leadership skills and high stakes rescue missions translate into effective business strategies. So Bernadette, it’s May, which some people may not realize is Mental Health Awareness Month and a special emphasis for all of our lawyer friends on lawyer wellbeing and lawyer mental health. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Yeah. Mental health is not something that we should take lightly because when we are well, we can serve our clients well, right? 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like sometimes we talk about it a lot and then on the other hand, I feel like we don’t talk about it enough and we should just talk about it a lot more. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Yeah, I agree. I definitely agree. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. So in that spirit, because it is May, it is Mental Health Awareness Month. I just wanted to highlight a few of the episodes we’ve done on this show that I think are always worth revisiting. One that comes to mind is episode 585. It’s the one we did on mental health first aid training. Our team did that training. It was so valuable. In fact, I did have to use those skills once with somebody who was in a mental health crisis and I was able to pull from those resources in the back of my head and actually ask the person the right questions to get them help in the moment. So I know that that’s been super helpful and valuable to me. And obviously we’ve tackled lots of issues around mental health on the show. Everything from drinking and addiction to gambling to just taking time off and getting out of the office and actually having some unplugged time. 

So whatever mental health looks like for you, I just would encourage everyone to check out those resources, check out your state bar. They often have a ton of resources available for you and make it a priority in your life. 

Bernadette Harris: 

Yeah. And I think that we also need to take away the stigma about therapy and getting help because there’s absolutely nothing wrong with reaching out to a professional and getting help or just raising your hand and saying, “Hey, I need help.” 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yes, absolutely. I love that. So for sure, check out those resources and now let’s check out my conversation with Conrad, which in a weird way I think ties into this topic as well. So I’ll let listeners decide for themselves. 

Conrad Saam: 

Hey, Stephanie, really good to be here. This is Conrad Saam from Mockingbird. I have been doing digital legal marketing for now over 20 years. I was first interviewed for the lead marketing role at Avo when nobody knew what SEO was and actually the guy, Rich Barton, who founded Expedia and then Zillow and then put money behind Avo. One of my close friends was the CMO at Zillow and I went over to his house. We drank a six pack of beer and he taught me everything you could actually know about SEO back in 2006 over a six pack of beer. And I went to the interview looking like I was really smart and that’s how I got into the industry and I’ve never looked back. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Nice. I love that there was a time where you could learn everything you needed to know about you over a six pack of beer. 

Conrad Saam: 

I know. I remember Mark. He was like, “It’s like this web of links and it’s this whole thing.” And it 

Bernadette Harris: 

Was great. 

Conrad Saam: 

Yeah. Honestly, it was that simple back then. It genuinely was that simple back then. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Well, I’m sure we can talk about some legal marketing pieces, but because that’s your day job, I’m kind of interested in what most people might not know is that you’re like a superhero at night and on the weekends.You have this other whole persona and I think it’d be cool to talk about that for a few minutes. 

Conrad Saam: 

I’m very happy to talk about it. So I do a variety of volunteer work in ski patrol and search and rescue and I specialize in back country search and rescue. And so tonight I’m literally going out into the mountains. We have a three-day training on survival and transportation. So if you get screwed up, if you break a femur three miles out in the back country, what do you do? How do rescuers get to you? How do we find you? How do we stabilize you? How do we transport you or not? And so I’m doing a three-day training overnight with just what you carry on your back and it’s just going to be simulations all weekend. So it’s fun. I love this and I find, and I probably shouldn’t say this out loud, but I come back from three days of doing that and it’s like having a two week vacation. 

You can’t think about your job. You can’t think about the client who hasn’t gotten back to you or the employee that you might want to be trying to hire. All of that goes away and I find it super, super therapeutic is probably the right word. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. How did you get into that? 

Conrad Saam: 

So I mean, I’ve been skiing all my life. I was a ski instructor for this kids ski school that all my kids went through and I was a ski instructor and I was a terrible, terrible ski instructor because I would just push all these kids as if they were my kids and I pushed my kids really hard. And so I would end up with kids crying and I was always like, “You can do it, you can do it. ” And so a lot of it’s mental and I was a terrible ski instructor. And so I moved to the medical side of it and I’ve loved that ever since. So we do a lot of mundane stuff, but every now and then we have some pretty dramatic rescues and I like being there when someone’s having a really bad day. It’s great to be there. You also get to buy a lot of cool stuff. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Good peer. 

Conrad Saam: 

Yeah. 

Stephanie Everett: 

I love what you said about how you have to be so mentally on when you’re in that situation. You’re not thinking about work or the kids or anything because the task at hand is probably, I’d imagine, pretty intense. It requires your focus. I mean, I’m trying to just even remember the last time I felt that way. 

Conrad Saam: 

We don’t have to do that. It’s really hard to check out. As a business owner, it’s so important. We talk about this all the time. It’s so important to check out. We talk about mental health and you can be … I’m obsessive about my business. I get up at 4:30 every day and I was sending emails out and sending stuff to … I’m obsessive about this and you have to be to be a business owner. And all the people are like, “Four hour work, good for you, go four hour work week yourself.” But in reality, you have to be obsessive about this stuff. 

The level, the tactical level that you’re obsessive about can evolve over time, but ultimately it’s your business, it’s your baby, it’s your future, it’s your kid’s future, it’s your employee’s future, it’s your client’s future. You have to be obsessive about it. So I remember sitting on a boat in a British Virgin Islands. I’m not a boater, but my wife was finally like, “Hey, let’s stop doing these winter trips. Let’s go somewhere warm.” So we did this amazing old sailboat, British Virgin Islands and I’m sitting there, I’m running P&Ls in my head and I’m thinking about the clients and you’ve got to be able to get away. And the only way I found the getaway is to have something else that you have to obsessively focus on. And on the weekends, when up in the mountains, my job is the safety of everyone at that resort. 

And so I run the teams, I run the volunteer teams on some weekend days and so that’s a huge responsibility. So I even ski, I’m always looking for problems. And it sounds weird, but it’s so calming and it’s so therapeutic and it’s just putting an intense … If you’re an intense person, taking your intense focus off of your business and applying that intense focus somewhere else, I find to be unbelievably helpful. Yeah, 

Stephanie Everett: 

Because it kind of sounds stressful when you just said, “I’m skiing and I’m always looking for the problems. I’m checking everything out. “That feels like you’re just trading one stressful situation for another. 

Conrad Saam: 

So the interesting thing after you do this for a while, it is completely … So for first responders, you’re working with people in a very stressful situation at the worst time of probably one of the worst times that they’re going to have, but it’s not stressful for the first responders who are well-trained, who’ve seen it before. You actually have to come in with a sense of calm and like, “I’ve got this under control. We don’t need to panic.” Even if you do need to panic, you know what to do. And if you know what to do, you don’t panic. The training is so unbelievably important. It’s weird, but it is amazingly, you’re in a very stressful environment in complete calm because you know exactly what to do and you have to be that way to be effective. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. I would imagine one of the things we teach in our leadership programming is we have this saying we say leaders bring the weather, right? If you panic, if you come in and you’re stressed out, you just see your whole team get amped 

Bernadette Harris: 

Up and 

Stephanie Everett: 

It sounds like I would imagine there’s a lot of crossover lessons if you were to sit down and think about it to what you’re doing with search and rescue and how that might impact or lessons you bring back to your business. 

Conrad Saam: 

I love the phrase leaders bring the weather because it’s absolutely what happens. And as a business owner, this is where being a business owner gets really lonely because you can’t confide in your employees at like, “Oh no, we’ve got to deal with X or Y or whatever it might be. ” There’s also the phrase be like a duck, look calm at the top and paddle like mad underneath the water. That is a really, really key piece of leadership and it’s really important for culture, like whether you know it or not, you are setting that culture. And so most of the time let’s bring the temperature down, let’s not panic. And even if the feet are going crazy under the water, we’ve got this handled. We’ve done this before, it’ll be okay. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. Do you watch the pit? 

Conrad Saam: 

I don’t watch anything. Oh yeah, 

Stephanie Everett: 

You don’t watch TV. 

Conrad Saam: 

I’m not a TV. I really don’t watch anything. I will watch a replay of the Michigan basketball game after I get back, but that’s going to be about it. I honestly don’t know how people … So again, super intense person, if I’m sitting down watching … I could be doing something else. I absolutely could be doing something else. And so I don’t TV at all. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. Well, fair. Well, hopefully you’ve heard about the pit, super popular show. I can’t stand lawyer dramas because I am dissecting. I’m just like, “That would never happen. That’s not real.” But I love medical because I don’t know if those people are getting it right or not, whatever. But there was a scene in last week’s episode where the new guy, the med student, is trying to staple this guy’s head together literally and he goes, “Oops.” And of course the patient’s 

Conrad Saam: 

Like- You don’t 

Stephanie Everett: 

Want to hear oops. Yeah. And so then the supervising doctor’s like, small note, never say oops, that’s not a thing we do. 

Conrad Saam: 

Right, right. Yeah. Never say oops to the patient. 

Stephanie Everett: 

What else is being on the mountain, what else do you see? How else do you see it translate into your business and what you’re doing every day? 

Conrad Saam: 

Well for me, I became the, we call it the DPL day patrol leader. So I’m responsible for there’s 25 or so people on the mountain and 25 or so patrol is on the mountain at any given day on a weekend day. And so it’s super decisive leadership. So really clear objectives, checklists. There are things that we have to get done. So the most obvious example of this would be someone needs to make sure that the AED is plugged in. Do we ever need the AED? Probably not. Probably not today, but like we’re going to do that every single day. And so the need for decisive leadership in a situation like that and it’s 99% mundane. I mean, it is a really mundane job. We spend a lot of time sitting around eating barbecue, right? We spend a lot of time skiing powder and that’s all awesome and it’s mundane. 

And then when it goes stupid, you have to know how you’re going to respond. In business, stuff goes stupid all the time. And so some of the best things that you can do is, and we do this in search and rescue as well, where post incident you’ll do a debrief like what happened? And this happens, it’s not some of the time. Every time you have an incident in search and rescue, you do a debrief and it is an open forum and we all share and everyone gets a little bit smarter. You can also do that from a training perspective. 

I’m doing a whole bunch of mock missions this weekend. We will do a debrief. In a business setting, and I’ve seen businesses do this, you can say, “Okay, what happens if we lose this client? What happens if we get this negative review? What happens when this happens?” So I think one of the things that when it goes stupid, you handle it, you manage it and you have to handle and manage that with making the decisions that you have with the information that you have at the time, which will never be perfect information, never. But then you have to come back and say, “Okay, how did that go? ” And that brings me to the next point. This is an Amazon principle. I’m in this Seattle area. All of my friends work at Amazon at a business school. So we all kind of moved here in 2000 and they all work at Amazon and I work at this little small company. 

They think I’m crazy. But one of the things, one of the Amazon principles is don’t judge the outcome, judge the decision. And that’s a really interesting thing that happens in search and rescue ski patrol as well as in a business setting. So it is really important when you’re doing that debrief, not to be like, “Hey, you know what? That pay per click campaign sucked or we shouldn’t have done this or we tried that and it was a failure.” You can’t evaluate the person based on what the outcome was. And I’ll take this in an emergency care situation. You’ve got someone you think they have an X but they actually had a Y and we didn’t necessarily do the right thing, but we got them down into an ambulance and they’re on their way. 

Given what we knew at the moment, like you’re on the mountain, you don’t necessarily have a stethoscope with, you don’t necessarily have, there’s no imaging equipment. Our job is with very limited medical information to make a quick assessment and in some cases we call it poo-haw, pick up and haul ass. Some cases like get that person into an ambulance as quickly as possible, right? Now, did you make all the right decisions given the outcome? No, but what you knew at the time, are you making the right decision? And I think that’s really … And I live in the marketing world. Sometimes we’ll run a campaign and it’s like, God, that was terrible. But would we have done anything differently? Judge the decision not the outcome. I think that’s a really important thing that I learned from my Amazon friends, but it applies search and rescue, ski patrol, as well as kind of business. 

Well, 

Stephanie Everett: 

Maybe that’s a good little segue. We should probably talk about a litle bit of marketing because- 

Conrad Saam: 

We can talk about marketing. Because 

Stephanie Everett: 

You know so much about it. 

Conrad Saam: 

For better or worse. 

Stephanie Everett: 

I know. If people haven’t checked out your show, we should give a plug to that because you and Gee give so much valuable content away every day. I mean, it’s 

Conrad Saam: 

Amazing. The Lentar Legal Marketing podcast has been amazing for us, but it’s really been amazing because every now and then it doesn’t happen all the time. It doesn’t happen maybe once a month. Someone will be like, “Hey, thank you so much. You’ve really helped my business or I listened to you. I can’t believe what we’ve done.” Or, “Oh my gosh, you talked about X and you were totally right and we’ve used it and it’s been amazing.” I’m an immigrant. We moved into the US in 79. I watched my dad start a business. I believe in the nobility of the American entrepreneur. It’s a very corny, corny thing, but I believe this to my bones. There is something special about this country and the entrepreneurs who fuel this country. I 100% believe that the magic of making that happen and getting to play in a small part for everyone and to be a little piece of other people’s nobility of the American entrepreneur, that is awesome.That’s why I love what I do and I hope that comes across in the pod. 

Stephanie Everett: 

For sure it comes across from both of you and hopefully from me too, because I think when we talk, we just get all so excited. Whenever we see each other at conferences, next thing you know, everyone’s hyped up because it’s like, “This is fun.” Our jobs are stressful, but I think that they’re fun. I can’t imagine a better way to get to come. Maybe if I was skiing all day, that might be a better way to work, but 

Conrad Saam: 

If not, at least I get 

Stephanie Everett: 

To help people. 

Conrad Saam: 

So yeah, on the marketing side, I think the big question right now is we’re all talking about AI and one of my big takeaways at the American Bar Association Tech Show, if you could step up and look at it from above, it was a really fascinating dynamic. There was more money from big software companies than I have seen at ABA Tech Show ever by far. And you’re starting to see these crazy opulent events. There’s tons of money that’s pouring into this industry. And then I watched Bob Ambrosi’s Startup Ally. The Startup Alley. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. 

Conrad Saam: 

So of all of the startups, only one of them wasn’t centered around AI and even that one had an AI element to it, but only one of them wasn’t centered on AI. And basically what it was, to distill it into a top level don’t read, a bunch of law firms who were using AI creatively, effectively, efficiently in their own firms, this is how we’re using AI. And then they basically took their own agents, put a label on it, called it a company and pitched it a tech show. What that means, Stephanie, is that the competitor to these big software companies, it’s not other software companies predominantly. It’s not marketing agencies predominantly. It’s Jeff at in- house in the firm who’s really, really fascinated with how this stuff works and what can we do to make this work for our firm better. And so there’s two things that I think, and maybe I’m overselling that, but I don’t know yet, but I don’t think I am. 

There’s a couple things that come out of that. It is very possible that the future of law four years from now, two years from now, is that every law firm is working with a bespoke model with the infrastructure of AI underneath how they do business that is developed in- house, customized, in- house, and used in- house. And it is not, we need to learn how to use Filevine. We need to learn how to use blah, blah, blah. You don’t need to learn. Yo basically teach the thing how to operate within the way you already operate. So I think that is going to be a massive shift in this world and it already is. By the way, this is not kind of happening. I’m not even prognosticating. This has happened, whether or not it becomes prolific elsewhere is a different conversation, but that is part of it. 

The other thing, and I love this and I hope I’m right about this, really genuinely hope I’m right about this. When I got into this game back in 2006, I did this interview with Mark Britton. I knew everything about SEO because it only took six, three beers to learn that. Technology was a SEO, Google was a playfield leveler. So just because you were big didn’t mean you were going to win. If you were entrepreneurial, tech savvy, creative, willing to take a risk, you could win and law firms won. Law firms were created because they embraced technology and it leveled the playing field. That has gone away over the last five, six years. So size matters, like I hate to quote John Morgan, but like size matters, scale matters. Being able to run things at low margins and just do volume, that matters. That’s effective. It’s effective. 

I hate it, but it’s effective. So we’ve moved from a technology as a playfield leveler to technology as really an advantage. Even just think about data sets for pay-per-click. It’s an advantage for big and the bigger, the bigger the advantage. And so you get the Morgans, you get the top dogs. They are run on data and there’s scale and volume that live there. And I hated that about, again, going back to my roots, like the nobility of the American entrepreneur, the legal industry has moved towards the medical model where most doctors don’t work for themselves. Most doctors work for a massive organization, which sucks just from my American dream perspective, I hate that. But is it possible and I think it is that that smart solo, like take the solo and it can weigh across the spectrum, can be just as effective. Does AI flip the scale argument and reenable that smart solo to be just as effective as the big firms? 

That is very possible. Is it going to happen for everyone? Absolutely not. But I think we’re moving into this world where that AI may open that up and I hope I’m not just being too idealistic about that, but that is kind of my passionate dream about the future of the legal industry and technology. 

Stephanie Everett: 

I love it. I love that framing too on that first point because we were sitting there watching the startup competition and our team was like, Claude, Claude, Claude. Everybody was up there pitching their products and their business and we were like, “Claude can do that. Claude can do that. ” Now, we don’t think lawyers know this yet. We’re out there saying like, “Hey guys,” but the reality is like, yeah, in the last 60 days, Claude can do all those things now, but I love the way you just flipped it is not that, “Hey, you started a bad company.” It’s like, “Hey, law firms, you too can use this tech and leverage it for your business.” And that’s amazing. 

Conrad Saam: 

I will tell you this, our reporting infrastructure, just our reporting infrastructure costs me about 300 to $400,000 a year for my clients on Monday we have our quarterly meeting and at the top of my Post-it note is kill reporting, right? So how do we replace what we have been doing for so many years with a really sophisticated backend infrastructure and we’ve got this data warehouse and this other layer and this all pulls this shit in together and it turns it into pretty graphs and then we send it off to our client. Some of our clients literally have this conversation. “Why are you sending me this stuff? I already know this. I knew this already because I’m using AI in a hands-on manner.” So that’s happening to me and I think about this stuff all the time. I will have $400,000 more in the bank because I do not need that infrastructure. 

Now, am I going to be spending a whole bunch of money on Claude? Yeah. And it’ll go from $400,000 to $4,000, right? Merr Christmas. 

Stephanie Everett: 

I know you see the means of where you’re waiting on your Claude tokens. We’re like, it’s already a thing at our company. We’re like, “Can we have more, please?” I built a dashboard the other week and I was like, “Guys, I have been dreaming of this dashboard for years and me and Claude just did it in 20 minutes.” 

Conrad Saam: 

Yes, that is exactly right. So we built, and I’m serious about this, I think it took us … And by the way, we over-engineered the crap out of this. Our reporting infrastructure took us two years to build and it takes a ton of money and time to maintain, to keep it running. I have better reporting for really meaningful, insightful reporting. And I don’t just mean like, “Hey, Claude, tell me what to do, but tie these things together.” It’s taking data from disparate parts. I know more about what is making the wheels turn for our clients at an aggregate level than I ever have before and that is three months old, right? It’s amazing. That’s 

Stephanie Everett: 

Pretty 

Conrad Saam: 

… So the firms can either rely on someone, like the vendors to figure this stuff out and they can focus it, which is fine, or they can try and work on it themselves. It is pretty astonishing what can be done. 

Stephanie Everett: 

I’ve got guys on the team that are just building a fake law firm for fun and Claude just so then we could … I mean, the whole goal is we want to flip it and show firms out, “Hey, we can help you with this. ” It’s not that hard and it’s pretty fun and exciting, but are fake firms up and running. 

Conrad Saam: 

I’ve created a fake agency to convince the fake agency that the fake agency’s instance of Claude that the fake agency is the best digital marketing agency for legal in the world and we’re going to show how easy it is for … And this is where this gets gross. In my world, we have a lot of agencies talking about how they’ve mastered AI. They’ve figured it out, they’ve backdoored ChatGPT and what they do and they know they’re doing this, which is why it’s disgusting, they will take screenshots of themselves asking themselves who the best digital marketing agency is after they have taught themselves that the best digital marketing agency is themselves. And it’s so fucking circular and self-serving and they know better. They know better. And so that’s the other flip side of all of this, the reporting and we tend as very lazy humans to believe what’s coming out of the machine and we forget two very important things. 

Number one, this stuff is massively personalized. Claude knows all the things that we just talked about. Claude already knows that I’m into search and rescue, that I do four by four, that I like vintage cars. They have very good profile on Conrad. By the way, so does Gemini because it’s owned by the good people in Mountain View. So they know everything about you, which means your results are personalized. So if I ask Claude something about India, it’s going to give me India pale ale as opposed to the country of India. That’s just what happens. So it’s so personalized that there is no typical result. There is no ranking. It’s all bullshit when the agency is trying to pretend this way. The other thing that happens is we call this flux when the results that I see over and over, they’re different every time. So even me running the same things over and over again, I’m going to get results, different results every time after time after time. 

So we have to abandon anyone who suggests that they have figured this out by pointing to an individual result because it is fabricated, bullshit, self-serving. Sorry, rant over. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Love it. Well, we could talk probably all day, but you’ve got campaign and skiing to get to. Before I let you leave though, you guys have a cool event coming up in August this year. 

Conrad Saam: 

Launch our legal marketing summit. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. Tell us, give us your pitch. Why should we- The 

Conrad Saam: 

Pitch? Why 

Stephanie Everett: 

Should we be there? 

Conrad Saam: 

Well, so this is good marketing. The pitch is maybe you shouldn’t need to be there. The pitch is, this is very much designed for in- house marketers and law firm owners. We are trying to deliver something that is genuinely tactical is really focused around the in- house marketer. I want people to come away from that with tactical useful stuff as opposed to … I’ve been to and talked at so many digital marketing conferences, so many law firm conferences. A lot of it is highfalutint trying to make myself look good because I spent $30,000 for this one hour speaking spot that no one really knows about the fact that I’m paying to pitch here. And so that just happens and it’s a sales pitch after sales pitch after a sales pitch. I want to flip that and I really want in- house marketers to be able to walk away and be like, “Here are seven things that I can do. 

Here’s two things that I can do. ” And so we’ve got some great speakers and the other part, the other really fun reason to go because Do you know I like doing things out of the box, Stephanie? We are doing ending each day with Ignite Talks and Ignite Talks are awesome. Ignite talks are it’s five minutes, 20 slides, you do not control the slide advancements. So the slides automatically advance. It’s a very, very hard presentation to give and we try and get out of the box examples of content. I want people who haven’t been on stage often, who are going to talk about something that’s a little controversial or out there or exciting or exploratory. And so those are really fun way. And we do those talks while people are having cocktails and having a good time. So it’s a casual way to do it, but it’s really, really fun and it is really hard to deliver a talk in that style. 

So it’s nerve-wracking. Part of the fun is watching people bomb on stage. 

Stephanie Everett: 

You’re making me nervous because you may not know this, but I’m giving one this year. 

Conrad Saam: 

I know you are. I know you are. And it’s terrifying. 

Stephanie Everett: 

But I got some good advice on the whole slide thing. So we’ll see how it goes, but I’m going to have it. I got some ideas. 

Conrad Saam: 

Good. 

Stephanie Everett: 

And I think my talk’s a little, maybe it is a little more controversial for me if people have heard me speak before. I went with something way off the wall. 

Conrad Saam: 

What’s your topic? Go off the wall. What’s the topic? 

Stephanie Everett: 

Yeah. It’s basically like why you need to fire yourself as the CEO of your business. 

Conrad Saam: 

I love it. 

Stephanie Everett: 

It has a more clever name, but it’s not coming to me right now. But that’s the general concept is like you suck as a leader. 

Conrad Saam: 

I love it. I love it. 

Stephanie Everett: 

All right. 

Conrad Saam: 

Come and learn why you suck as a leader from Stephanie. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Exactly. And I’ll say this too, I went last year and you’re right. There were times where you guys got in the weeds on digital marketing in a way that I didn’t even understand or comprehend. And so if you have someone on your team that is that person for you, then they would really love this event because you guys gave great content. I mean, I walked away and learned a lot, but there were definitely times where I was like, yeah, this is over my head. Kudos to you in a good way. 

Conrad Saam: 

Well, I’ve always believed that when you’re giving a talk, I would rather … And lawyers hate this and I don’t care because you guys want to understand and be on top of everything that you’re being taught. I would rather people walk away overwhelmed than underwhelmed with content. And so we try and just jam in as much as we possibly can. 

Stephanie Everett: 

Love it. Well, thank you for hanging out with me today. Thank you so much. And we’ll make sure that the show notes guys are going to contain all the links to all the cool stuff Conrad’s doing so you can check it out there and good luck. I hope that it’s a mundane barbecue kind of … Oh, it’s training. So hopefully- It’s training. Yeah. 

Conrad Saam: 

It’s training. This is a good time to get really hurt out in the back country because there’s going to be a whole bunch of well-trained people out there this weekend. Let’s hope. It’s all training. We won’t 

Stephanie Everett: 

Wish that on anyone. Let’s hope it’s- 

Conrad Saam: 

Don’t worry on anyone, but if it happens, this is your weekend to pick. 

Stephanie Everett: 

All right. Thank you. 

Conrad Saam: 

Thanks.