The good news is that you survived your first year and passed all your classes. The bad news is that your grades are lackluster, you are not in the top 25% of your class, and you are not sure what to do. Unless you hate law school, it is not time to throw in the towel.
What to say during OCI interviews
Frankly, if you do not finish in the top 25-30%, you might not get many OCI interviews. If you do get some interviews, the firms probably like something else on your resume–prior work experience, interesting background, etc.
During your interview, talk about that stuff. There is no need to defend a grade unless they ask. If they do, direct them back to your other strengths. Something like “Yes, I was slightly disappointed in my grades. At the same time, I learned from [prior experience/work experience] that having [these skills] really helped me stand out in [prior experience.]
Lawyers do not remember their grades. If you can get an interview, show them why you would make an excellent clerk, and they may not even ask about your grades.
Find a way to acquire practical skills
Lots of people who get good grades do law review/journals and tend to become obsessed with their grades. Many of them are too busy to actually work as a law clerk somewhere. That is your chance to separate yourself from them.
Start networking and find an opportunity to do some real legal work. Depending on the employer, legal experience can be more important then law review. Another good option is to sign up for a law school clinic.
Your GPA can still go up
If you are still concerned about your grades, you still have two years to raise your GPA. After first year, most classes are no longer on a forced curve. If you do some research, you can choose classes that tend to result in good grades. You can do the same with professors and find out which ones like to give out A’s.
Not doing as well as you hoped first year can be a bummer, but it is not the end of the world.
(photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/quinnanya/3592737144/)
Randall Ryder is a Minnesota consumer rights attorney who sues abusive debt collectors and is a publisher of Elder Parent Help. Follow him on Twitter @randallryder.
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I think a necessary corollary to this post is what a student should do if they have finished the first year of law school with rather poor grades – an average in the C range, or the bottom 10% or 20% of their class. Assuming the grades were not caused by some external event that is not likely to recur (serious health problem, death of close friend or relative), those students really need to ask themselves whether it makes sense to continue to shell out tens of thousands of dollars for law school if they can’t succeed academically. At a minimum, law students at the bottom of their classes should have some sort of plan for when they get out. By “plan,” I mean a way of earning an income. Perhaps there is a relative or family friend who intends to hire the lawyer straight out of school. Perhaps there is a family business the student will go into. Maybe the student is so well known in his or her community (because of a prior career or other favorable notoriety), that the student expects to have some success in attracting clients. Maybe the student is so wealthy that he or she does not need to immediately earn an income after law school.
Also, I don’t think someone has to “hate” law school to decide to stop going. The day-to-day practice of law may not bear very much resemblance to law school, but if you find you don’t enjoy reading cases, picking them apart, or writing about them, then you really have to think about whether you have sufficient passion about the law to overcome the struggle of earning an income sufficient to repay the $100k+ in debt that you’ve incurred.
In America, we don’t like “quitters.” We think that once someone starts a task, they should suck it up and see it through to the end, no matter how dreary the outcome. It’s not a recipe for happiness though. If you came through the first year poorly, consider taking what you’ve learned and applying it in some other area that is a better fit with your natural talents.
Eric, I like and respect you, and I am really late to this post (it just showed up in my Linkedin feed this morning for some reason), but I can’t disagree with you more. I really hope that in the past 2 years since this post was written, that no law students have taken this advise. If so, someone may have been deprived of their life’s work, and society may have been deprived of a potentially great lawyer. There is no correlation between law school grades and being a successful lawyer. Good grades assist in acquiring your first job, nothing else. Moreover, the skills that make a successful lawyer (i.e. empathy, problem solving, multi-tasking) aren’t tested in law school. Part of the seeming disatisfaction of lawyers relates not the profession itself, but to the fact that BigLaw hires lawyers based almost solely on grades. In reality, law is not a purely academic pursuit. Rarely do you have the opportunity to focus on a narrow topic for substantial periods of time. Instead, you work on something until it abruptly ends and are required to refocus on an entirely new and unrelated matter . If law firms hiring committees started looking inward (at the background of their most successful partners) grades would be the 4th or 5th attribute reviewed. Until that time, my advise to young lawyers or law students with “bad grades” is don’t let anyone tell you what you can or can’t do!
I agree! I am a 2L now and because of health and other factors saw my GPA suffer like never before…I am paying for law school myself and am not about to throw my hands up and walk away defeated by grades since I know too well that things like the LSAT and law school grades are NOT predictors of future success in law nor do they accurately demonstrate much other than how the student (or LSAT taker) can recall and perform on one exam. I could say more but I’ll just leave it at, I agree – again.
Eric – you raise a number of good points that I intend to address in a separate post (many of which I intended to include here, but neglected to do so). Thanks for the thoughtful feedback.
isn’t there a necessary disclaimer that if your school isn’t in the top 14 or so, you most likely should not and cannot rely upon OCI, regardless of rank?
@ bernie – I do not think anyone should solely rely on OCI. That said, I know plenty of lawyers in Minneapolis who attended “local” schools and got jobs through OCI.
This is very helpful advice, Randall. I would emphasize your points on finding practical experience and networking. The fact is most practicing lawyers didn’t graduate in the top 10 or 25% of their graduating classes. (Yes, it seems obvious to do the math.) Good grades do not always equate to excellent lawyering. I know that may come as a shock to some, but getting solid practical experience can make all the difference. I know a good number of law grads who were hired on the basis of their practical work — they made connections, learned from other practitioners, cultivated professional connections. When the time came for an opening, they had strong references based on actual experience. Grades have value as a proxy for predicting future performance. For many legal jobs (e.g., solo practice, public defense, legal service, etc.),however, experience has a much higher predictive value than grades.
dont forget that when considering dropping out you should also realize that you probably wont be making anything on your undergrad degree either. i dropped out after bad 1l grades-only to come back after not getting anything outside law either. and i very much enjoyed the study and research and writing skills taught.
on the other hand even if you love law but got in bottom 10% and have another avenue to make money you should consider dropping out.
further-the corollary of your grades may go up is that your grades are just as likely to go down-for however much you improve your skills-so will your classmates.
the idea of networking sounds great-until you realize that networking is code for “beg people who barely know you to stick their neck out for you in the worst hiring crisis in decades-thereby making their neck on the line if you don’t work out-for no consideration at all. ”
basically-you shouldnt post about what to do if you get bad grtades in law school. yes-there are things you can do to make yourself look good besidees grades-but everyone is doing them-just like trying to get good grades. so a post saying here is how to recover from bad grades is disingenuous. you might drop out or stay in-but either way your screwed-you may do other things-but your still behind and will likely never catch up.
yes-bad grades seemingly only matter for the first job-but that first job is usually how you leverage your second. so once you loose the game you’ve basically lost your career.
the only bright idea i can think of is considering whether you would be interested in grad school in a different profession-one actually in demand.
31 with bad grades
Your negativity is outstanding, if nothing else. Considering the fact that you’ve made it through 4 years of undergrad and 1 year of law school and still don’t know the difference between “your” and “you’re” and “lose” and “loose” is even more outstanding.
May I suggest an English course and an attitude change? The combination certainly won’t do your job search OR your grades any harm.
Major “like” here!
Also, it does not matter if you are going into law or some other field because every job is about networking! Employers have more incintive to hire someone they know or someone with a good reputation before someone they interview that has the exact same qualifications. It’s all about making yourself stand out above the crowd.
@ Steve – given your experience in career and professional development, I am very glad to hear you share a similar perspective.
@ 3l – I think you need to re-read the post.
Randall, did you just give 3L a bad grade?
@3l
Networking is not begging. It’s meeting people, getting to know them, and basically showing them you are a pleasant, competent person who can carry on a normal conversation. It also shows a certain amount of initiative. If you’re looking to get hired, networking allows potential employers, or friends or associates of potential employers, to get to know you before the somewhat rigid interview process. In other words, the people you meet know you are a decent sort.
I just finished my first year of law school at a Tier 4 school with one of the most rigorous grading curves in the nation (a school which, 2 weeks after we began, provided us a letter for prospective employers asking them not to compare our GPAs to other schools because of the curve – quite a ridiculous proposition if you ask me). My fall semester ended with a 2.31 GPA and I had a very rough second semester on a personal level and unfortunately ended up with 2 “Ds” my second semester which killed my GPA and resulted in my Academic Dismissal. I have not failed any classes – in fact, I earned 2 “B-,” 2 “C+,” 3 “C” and the 2 “Ds. My cumulative GPA is 1.95 and apparently the cutoff for dismissal is 2.0. I appealed the dismissal to the academic standards committee and they denied my readmission. I am by no means a “D” student – or even a slacker – I got a 160 on my LSAT and had a 3.5 UGPA. This all boils down to 2 bad tests in 1 bad week.
I am trying to figure out how to get back into the school for at least the next semester because I KNOW I can raise my GPA. I think the policy is unjust considering the school is keeping our grades artificially low and I have read the dismissal and readmission policies for better-rated schools in this state and found them to be far more liberal and provide more opportunity to prove yourself. I am very frustrated and I want to keep appealing to the school until I either get the opportunity to attend in the fall semester to prove myself or given the opoprtunity to withdraw so that my record isn’t tainted with a dismissal and I can more easily get into a Master’s program.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to proceed or if I should just give up altogether? I am frustrated that I have not actually failed any classes – but thats what it looks like considering I’ve been academically dismissed. Further, I have friends that have actually failed a class and somehow are still in school. I don’t know what to do or how to get back or get the opportunity to prove myself. The policy provides for Academic Probation for less than a 2.0 after the fall semester in which you get the spring semester to prove yourself, but the policy changes after that. If you fail to maintain a 2.0 after the spring or any semester thereafter, you get kicked out. I think it’s unfair that just because I didn’t do terribly my first semester (2 B-s and 2 Cs), but happened to do not so well on 2 exams in the spring – I don’t even get the opportunity to prove myself or raise my grades.
HELP!!! I need ideas!!!
Thank you :)
Seth,
I think the question you need to answer is: What is your plan for what you would do with a JD (knowing that even if you got back in, you’ll graduate at or near the bottom of your class)?
Seth I feel so sorry for you! What a nightmare to go through…I hope that you have found someone to help you. If it were me, I would plan another strategy if I really wanted to be an attorney (I’m in law school myself)- Drop out of that school and find a school that focuses on teaching students rather than frustrating them.
Seth,
Please ignore the negativity. If you desire to practice law, then proceed forward! Continue trying to get back into your school. Consider transferring to a lower ranked school if you are unable to sway the academic team at your current law school.
Do you have E&Es? What about horn books? Professional outlines? How is your study group? Meet with your professors on a weekly basis. These are small changes that will help you tremendously.
Don’t let anyone kill your dream. Some of our greatest heroes experienced failure initially.
God bless!
Michelle
Seth, I’ve been in your situation before where I flunked out of law school due to grades. I decided to work a few years before reapplying back to law school. I managed to get back in (now a 2L) but it wasn’t easy. The good news is that you know how to take the LSAT. You will have to sit out two years before reapplying back to law school (per ABA). However, I would petition the school to see whether you can redo the first year all over again. They may be more receptive to that.
Good luck to you, Seth!
JD2B,
I’m in the same boat as Seth and you’re story gave me some hope at a time where my future looks so bleak. It’s harder for people who still have the dream and know they can achieve it, but due to external and internal circumstances things didn’t go well.
I don’t want to be intrusive, but can you tell me how many years you waited before you re-applied? Did you work in a law-related field? Did you pursue any other degrees in the mean time? And what tier schools were most receptive to you?
Thanks
Lisa, I didn’t realize you responded to my post. I don’t know if you’ll ever get to reading this but to answer your questions….I went back to work after my dismissal in a field unrelated to law and remained employed for 15 years. Meanwhile, I earned my Master’s and I managed to progress in my career. I did receive a lot of rejections but the schools that were most receptive were the T3/T4 types. Some schools are forgiving of an academic dismissal and some are not. I think what helped was my ability to grow from the experience since my dismissal and that’s what ultimately helped my cause. But you’ll still have to get a good LSAT regardless.
Seth,
I believe I may attend the same school that you did and am now finding myself in a very similar position. I was able to petition for readmission after being academically dismissed due to low 2nd semester grades following an illness. However, this semester I am scared because if I don’t do well, I will not be able to return and I’m wondering if any other school would accept me and allow me to simply start over. My GPA dropped to a 1.9 (from a 2.9 first semester). It has been a while since your original post and I am wondering if you’ve been able to get in anywhere else
Knowing what do after law school dismissal is difficult. We, The JD Project (a non-profit), helps students in the process through our Returning Law Students Program. We do a comprehensive assessment to determine the factors that attribute to your dismissal. We have a law school study skills component to assist in you improving your study skills. Please check out our website and see if we might be of assistance.
Here’s more accurate information – if you finish your 1L year and are not in the top 10% of your class, you will not get a summer clerkship with a large law firm – period. If you finish your 1L year and you’re not in the top 25% of your class, you should reevaluate whether you want to incur an additional 2 years of debt in order to graduate with no job prospects. That’s the bottom line, folks. The legal talking heads and law schools will not give you accurate information. Ask actual JD students in the last five years, and see how many of them who didn’t attend Harvard Law and who also didn’t graduate in the top 25% of their class have a job practicing law. Just ask…
I know plenty of people who did not graduate in the top 25% of their class and they are working as real attorneys. Oh, and they didn’t attend Harvard. Many of them attended a Tier 3 law school.
I’m not going to defend the statistics that law schools throw out, but I think your view is skewed as well.
Although finishing in the top third (at least at my law school) appears to be a major factor considered by hiring firms, I think the main challenge to finding a job these days is a direct result of the incredibly bad state of our economy. The fact is there are fewer firms hiring and thus fewer jobs available. And to compound the problem, firms have been laying off associates who now compete with us soon to be graduates for the few jobs available.
I too have learned of several successful attorneys who did not graduate at the top of their class. After my first semester, I was ranked four from the bottom. I obtained meaningful legal work experience during each summer of law school, including a paid judicial clerkship. And yes I used networking to get those jobs. Now in my final semester, I am close to the middle of my class. I have been selected to interview at every OCI I’ve applied for despite my lackluster rank. And I have been told by an interviewing attorney (after the decision letters were sent out) that I was an extremely strong candidate that could have gotten an associate position had it not been for the fact that the firm ultimately decided not to hire anyone because of the negative economic outlook.
I will eventually get a job although it may take a while. I think ambition and persistence, demonstrated by a strong track record of productivity can usually compensate for a lack of stellar grades. And while I consider myself of average intelligence, I don’t think grades are always indicative of a person’s intellectual ability in law school. I have met many bright individuals who were not at the top of their class.
You sound very dumb! I’m at a Tier 4 school and an average of 93% of the graduates get a legal job.
2L — Is that 93% what your school reports to USNews? And how long after graduation do they count those jobs? I find it shockingly hard to believe that 93% of your school’s graduates have legal jobs within a year of graduation, when the national average is more like 30%.
I am wondering if anyone has ever sued the ABA over it’s “recommendation” that academically dismissed students sit out two years. It seems highly arbitrary and capricious. Why 2 years? Seems if someone did poorly on their exams, sat out a semester or even 1 year and was able to show they used that time to correct deficiencies or problems that led to their poor performance that should be sufficient to show they are capable of legal studies? It boils down to this does anyone think the ABA-standard would withstand a legal challenge?
I’m at the bottom of my class at my diploma mill law school. I just want to ask: are there any practicing attorneys out there who did not get stellar grades and are happy with their choice to stay?
I want to stay, because at least I”ll have something to show for the 1.5 years I’ve been in school. I’m not in the top of my class because I have kids, jobs, a partner, ect. and I refuse to neglect them. The top of the class/big law seems to have no work/life balance but fat bank accounts. I’ve been broke my whole life, and I don’t care if I’m broke for the rest of it paying off my loans as long as I’m doing what I chose to do. Money is evil anyway. I don’t buy into this consumerism obsession/elitism/entitlement thing that’s like a disease at my law school. That being said, am I alone here? Are all lawyers REALLY this greedy?
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